# Nuclear meltdown! Holy Godzilla NOOOO!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389 "2011-03-12T08:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/381 "2011-03-15T03:29:41Z")
I don’t know as I’ve heard anything like metal fatigue as a result of radiation. Be intrigued to know more. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/382 "2011-03-15T03:31:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I have dream. > > Second Stone is in a dire situation. Bad things are going to happen. But, wait, somebody has engineered something else to save him from someone elses bad engineering. > > But, then, it doesnt work. Because some bean counter redesigned it and the engineer said, “ah, what the hell, cost really is beyond my pay grade.” That is the story of my life. I will never dine on Road Runner. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/383 "2011-03-15T03:42:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And how much are we willing to pay for safety? Sure, the engineers can cook up a plan with double, triple safeguards. What is the cost of implementing those safeguards, at what point will a bean-counter say "Well, really, this is going to cost us 10 percent of our profit margin, we probably don’t need it… How does this relate to the current situation, which had triple safeguards? For the plant’s power to run the cooling system, the main source is the plant’s own electricity production, which was cut off immediately when safeguards kicked in during the quake. The first backup was diesel generators, which were taken out by the tsunami. The second backup was batteries, which they used until they ran out. The third backup was bringing in extra batteries and generators. Another backup plan to cool the core (fourth backup? depends how you look at it) was pumping in seawater and boron. I’m all for criticizing potentially dangerous systems which don’t have adequate backups due to penny-pinching, but that doesn’t appear to be the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/384 "2011-03-15T04:13:36Z")
Here’s a [one-stop shop for your nuclear safety news](http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/default.aspx), currently all-Fukushima-all-the-time. Not looking good. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/385 "2011-03-15T05:13:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t know as I’ve heard anything like metal fatigue as a result of radiation. Be intrigued to know more. I was never involved in that aspect, however, my uncle (designing nuclear plants has run in my family since the 50s) spent much of his career working on metal fatigue caused by neutron irradiation. As he explained it to me, the irradiation of carbon steel made it more brittle at low temperatures. For an operating reactor, that would not be a problem for the containment structure, but once doused with cold water, that might become a problem, depending on the type of steel, the conditions to which it had been subjected, and how overbuilt the containment structure was in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/386 "2011-03-15T05:23:37Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Do not be alarmed at any of these many nuclear plant explosions. They are not atomic bomb explosions. Waves hand. “These are not the explosions you are looking for.” > > That is just not true. Accountants are not engineers and do not prepare the plans. Accountants have no understanding of engineering. Engineers could refuse to prepare the plans, but they do not. They prepare them and they put their little engineer seal on them. That little seal says that it is the fault of the engineer if anything goes wrong. If I were to write a really long, boring, pedantic, humorless novel about what a grand profession engineering is, I would have an engineering project fail and then the engineer would do the honorable thing and commit sepuku just as an illustration of how honorable even incompetent engineers are. It would make my main engineer character look even better. I would be a cruel Author! Bullshit. The accountants will want to cut cost from any where they can. They will force engineers to cut things closer and closer. They will force them to buy cheaper and cheaper components. They will try to get the company to hire cheaper engineers with less experience. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/387 "2011-03-15T05:24:21Z")
BBC says: > [@](#): > > Japanese PM Naoto Kan has sent a text message to mobile phones users across the country, asking them to conserve power, Reuters reports. Could our president do that? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/388 "2011-03-15T05:25:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > No, it is just being prepared for the worse, and you seem to have problems with the word “imaginable”. > > Slate has indeed a few words for people like you: > > **Nuclear Overreactors** > > [Japan's nuclear crisis and the 2011 earthquake tsunami: Let's cool the political meltdown.](http://www.slate.com/id/2288212/) [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=1) Actually they have been guilty of under reacting. This thing is a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/389 "2011-03-15T05:30:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Bullshit. The accountants will want to cut cost from any where they can. They will force engineers to cut things closer and closer. They will force them to buy cheaper and cheaper components. They will try to get the company to hire cheaper engineers with less experience. That is the direct opposite of what I experienced in Ontario, and I never heard anyone else in my family mention such a thing either. Quite simply, around here, safety comes first with our nuclear reactors. Bean counters do not enter into the picture. Of course I can’t speak for what goes on elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/390 "2011-03-15T05:33:40Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap\_on\_bi\_ge/as\_japan\_earthquake\_nuclear\_crisis](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake_nuclear_crisis) "SOMA, Japan – Japan’s nuclear crisis deepened dramatically Tuesday. As safety officials sought desperately to avert catastrophe, the government said radioactive material leaking from reactors was enough to “impact human health” and the risk of more leaks was “very high.” "He urged anyone within 19 miles (30 kilometers) of the plant to stay indoors or risk getting radiation sickness. “The level seems very high, and there is still a very high risk of more radiation coming out,” Kan said." Nuke it from orbit quick! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/391 "2011-03-15T06:17:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=1) Actually they have been guilty of under reacting. This thing is a mess. Do you know the meaning of “potential”? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/392 "2011-03-15T07:14:44Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Could our president do that? Huh. I didn’t get one. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/393 "2011-03-15T07:42:10Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That is the direct opposite of what I experienced in Ontario, and I never heard anyone else in my family mention such a thing either. Quite simply, around here, safety comes first with our nuclear reactors. Bean counters do not enter into the picture. Of course I can’t speak for what goes on elsewhere. The Silkwood case was a famous example of a nuke contractor ignoring safety for money. They were faking weld inspections to keep the build on track and avoid a fine for missing the date. It was money over safety. I went on a tour of a nuke plant in Ontario. It was huge and clean. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/394 "2011-03-15T12:22:25Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > No, see, all the people who aren’t mentally impaired don’t feel the need to post that they’re not mentally impaired morons who need the simplest human behaviors continually explained to them, over and over and over again, still not comprehending. > > I’m certain the only form of humor you actually get, is the Family Circus cartoon in the paper. On those rare occasions when people happen to be somewhere near you, they see you rolling on the floor laughing maniacally and ask you what was so funny and between uncontrollable bursts of laughter you say “today’s Family Circus! It’s sooooo funny! It’s genius!” > > Then the people smile politely so as not to startle you, and then get away from you as quickly as possible. Oh sure, _my_ sense of humour is unsophisticated… (And I don’t know what family circus is either so that didn’t work too well for you did it?) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/395 "2011-03-15T12:37:57Z")
> [@](#): > > The radiation levels at Fukushima Daiichi are now too high for staff from the Tokyo Electric Power Company, which operates the nuclear power plant, to stay in control rooms there, according to Kyodo news. [link](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/15/japan-nuclear-crisis-tsunami-live) Presumably from either the breached containment of Reactor 2 or the on fire storage pits in Reactor 4. I happen to believe that due to the willful neglect of alternative energy sources that climate change issues probably make nuclear energy our only hope. I simply do not believe it is safe enough to leave in private hands and i don’t believe in the ‘jam tomorrow safety’ of unproven in development tech like pebble reactors. Where something can go wrong it will and we see that now. No planning for easily foreseeable disasters (one of the govt safety commission resigned 6 months ago in protest at the lack of safety concerns). Next to no significant backup safety features. And I don’t count one set of backup generators stored in Flood Me locations or 8 hours batteries as making a ‘significant’ effort. Turning one valve the wrong way causing a partial melt down. It’s like the Three bloody Stooges designed and ran the plant. Waste stored with the reactors for crying out loud. The operators were just playing at safety. And still, after all this time, no new equipment on site. No pumps. No backup generators (apparently the got some in but they don’t have an adapter to connect them to the plant’s proprietary systems). If we have to have nuclear plants we don’t build them on the coast. If we have to have them we have layer after layer after layer after layer of backup systems and we don’t let people answerable to shareholders run them. And if nuclear power can’t be both completely fail-safe and profitable then maybe we need to look elsewhere for our energy. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/396 "2011-03-15T12:54:58Z")
If government builds and runs nuclear power plants, they do it on the cheap because they want to get re-elected. If private industry builds and runs nuclear power plants, they do it on the cheap because they want more profits. If there is public input into building and running nuclear power plants, it’s done on the cheap because the unwashed masses don’t understand why false economy is bad. Private industry builds and maintains them, but gets away with a lot of things they shouldn’t because there aren’t enough government inspectors to go around. Green weenies don’t want them built at all, and in doing so will probably delay the required building so long that we’ll see blackouts and hunger before new nuclear plants come online (and this stuff in Japan will push new reactors back even further). I’ve said it before and I’ll probably say it again; if humanity manages to off ourselves as a species, it’s because we deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/397 "2011-03-15T13:37:55Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The Silkwood case was a famous example of a nuke contractor ignoring safety for money. They were faking weld inspections to keep the build on track and avoid a fine for missing the date. It was money over safety. No it wasn’t. You’re getting mixed up with another, quite different story of what may have been money over safety. [Karen Silkwood - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/398 "2011-03-15T13:44:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The Silkwood case was a famous example of a nuke contractor ignoring safety for money. They were faking weld inspections to keep the build on track and avoid a fine for missing the date. It was money over safety. I don’t think that Silkwood is a good example. > **[Silkwood Finale: The Fuel Rods Are OK by Bruce Brown (from New York Times)](https://www.astonisher.com/archives/silkwood.html)** > > Bruce Brown investigates the final performance of the nuclear fuel rods Karen Silkwood was worried about, and in the process writes the final chapter of the Silkwood controversy. > [@](#): > > **Life Expectancy Exceeded** > > None of these fears has materialized. In fact, the fuel rods from Kerr-McGee have actually exceeded specs. > > Most of the fuel rods manufactured at Kerr-McGee in the two years that Miss Silkwood worked there were contained in fuel rod lots 14, 15, 16 and 17, the last two of which were shipped to Hanford lets than a month after her death. Figures recently released by the Department of Energy show that, on the average, the fuel rods in lots 14 and 15 have exceeded rod life expectancy by 12 percent, while the rods in lot 16 exceeded life expectancy by 6 percent. The fuel reds in lot 17 have not yet completed their operational life. > > The facility has not had an accidental leak with fuel rods supplied by Kerr-McGee or Babcock & Wilcox, according to Government records. A better example would be the Tokyo Electric Power Company (the outfit whose reactors are now melting). It has a documented history of avoidance and cover-ups. For example, back in 2002 its top brass resigned over what turned out to be a couple of hundred instances of it submitting false technical data over a quarter of a century. [Tokyo Electric Power Company - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Electric_Power_Company#Scandal) [http://www.economist.com/node/1318056](http://www.economist.com/node/1318056) > [@](#): > > The latest company to be caught deceiving the public is Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO), Japan’s largest utility, which turns out to have filed at least 29 falsified reports to nuclear-safety regulators since the 1980s. The reports failed to list safety problems at eight different nuclear reactors, some of which have cracks in the steel shrouds that surround the reactor cores and ensure their safety. Presently, the physical integrity of the steel containment chambers is absolutely vital to avoid one hell of a mess in the event of full meltdowns, yet TEPC has a history of fudging its reports on its steel containment chambers. In other words, when the shit hits the fan, as it has now in epic proportions, one is left having to trust a company that has proven itself to be untrustworthy over this very item. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I went on a tour of a nuke plant in Ontario. It was huge and clean. Which one? Darlington? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/399 "2011-03-15T15:04:33Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > If government builds and runs nuclear power plants, they do it on the cheap because they want to get re-elected. > > If private industry builds and runs nuclear power plants, they do it on the cheap because they want more profits. > > If there is public input into building and running nuclear power plants, it’s done on the cheap because the unwashed masses don’t understand why false economy is bad. > > Private industry builds and maintains them, but gets away with a lot of things they shouldn’t because there aren’t enough government inspectors to go around. > > Green weenies don’t want them built at all, and in doing so will probably delay the required building so long that we’ll see blackouts and hunger before new nuclear plants come online (and this stuff in Japan will push new reactors back even further). > > I’ve said it before and I’ll probably say it again; if humanity manages to off ourselves as a species, it’s because we deserve it. Good points. We’ll go for the Chinese system of a bullet in the back of the head of all directors, senior managers and major shareholders and their political equivalents when this kind of shit happens. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/400 "2011-03-15T15:33:57Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Good points. We’ll go for the Chinese system of a bullet in the back of the head of all directors, senior managers and major shareholders and their political equivalents when this kind of shit happens. Nah, as far as organizational behaviour goes, such penalties would only serve to promote cover-ups. Better to hire the best people out there, set their goal as safety first, establish a corporate and design culture of openness and support, and recognize that mistakes happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=21)