# Nuclear meltdown! Holy Godzilla NOOOO!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389 "2011-03-12T08:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/561 "2011-03-19T00:27:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > BTW another report, from a more reliable source, mentions that experts do not think a “Chernobyl Solution” is a good one. > > [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=134661322](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=134661322) Well, it is being considered, but it’s not a popular idea just yet. Chernobylizing it now would only cover up all the evidence of their evil, corporate alien nuclear genetic experiments, so I’m reassured that they aren’t trying to bury first, censor questions later. Just kidding! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/562 "2011-03-19T01:01:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > …constant vigilance of independent groups and economical support for all people living next to nuclear plants should be a given and one should not wait for a disaster to get any support afterward. I largely agree with this, except I guess you’d need to define “economical support” for me. Definitely open records and even community reporting by the utility should be a given; community involvement should include a real and binding commitment to the economic health of the community as a whole and active full participation with the local governments in disaster preparedness. (This of course would set nuclear utilities far apart qualitatively from every conventional power utility in the country.) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/563 "2011-03-19T01:20:25Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I largely agree with this, except I guess you’d need to define “economical support” for me. Definitely open records and even community reporting by the utility should be a given; community involvement should include a real and binding commitment to the economic health of the community as a whole and active full participation with the local governments in disaster preparedness. (This of course would set nuclear utilities far apart qualitatively from every conventional power utility in the country.) I just remembered that hydroelectric power did and does need participation of local governments. IIRC in France or other locations, people living close to nuclear plants have most of their energy needs paid or have shares, that is money that then, if I was there, would be used to prepare for trouble. As it is, a disaster is not likely to be of the explosive kind, so I will have a little bit of time to move away. But still, facing the possibility, even a remote one, that I could be required to leave my home or lost my livelihood, should come with a price. Before and after, and it should be a given, not to depend on the whim of an energy company like Exxon. (Even though most fishermen that lost heir jobs got a judgment against Exxon for the Exxon Valdez Oil spill, I remember reading about people that died of old age waiting to see the settlement money.) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/564 "2011-03-19T02:57:47Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > \ > > This in a world that claims it is safe and ready for nuclear problems and wants everyone to feel secure and support nuclear power. > > Now that is as unsettling as the current disaster unfolding. > > And, the deniers don’t care. They will still say nuclear is safe, we need it, nothing can go wrong. And they really believe that.\ Well, on the upside, part of our problems is that there are too many people on the planet, too - nuclear disasters have their own form of win/win! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/565 "2011-03-19T03:12:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > …where I part with many nuclear proponents is the idea that private enterprise alone can deal with nuclear power properly, constant vigilance of independent groups and economical support for all people living next to nuclear plants should be a given and one should not wait for a disaster to get any support afterward. One need not wait if one knows that the utility and government don’t give a shit and will never send any support. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/566 "2011-03-19T08:15:58Z")
[Japanese finally admit that radiation leak is serious enough to kill people](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html) > [@](#): > > Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency admitted that the disaster was a level 5, which is classified as a crisis causing ‘several radiation deaths’ by the UN International Atomic Energy. > > Officials said the rating was raised after they realised the full extent of the radiation leaking from the plant. They also said that 3 per cent of the fuel in three of the reactors at the Fukushima plant had been severely damaged, suggesting those reactor cores have partially melted down. > > After Tokyo Electric Power Company Managing Director Akio Komiri cried as he left a conference to brief journalists on the situation at Fukushima, a senior Japanese minister also admitted that the country was overwhelmed by the scale of the tsunami and nuclear crisis. > > **He said officials should have admitted earlier how serious the radiation leaks were**. (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/567 "2011-03-19T08:17:52Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > One need not wait if one knows that the utility and government don’t give a shit and will never send any support. [Mayor of town near stricken Japanese nuclear plant claims his people have been ‘abandoned’](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367208/Japan-tsunami-earthquake-Mayor-claims-people-abandoned.html) > [@](#): > > ‘Of course I am angry,’ he told me through an interpreter yesterday. ‘I was ignored and then badly misled, and as a result the people were abandoned here to die.’ [Elederly patients left to die](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367473/Elderly-hospital-patients-left-die-Japans-nuclear-zone-400-000-fight-survive-tsunami-humanitarian-crisis.html) > [@](#): > > As the official death toll hit 6,539, it emerged that soldiers found 128 pensioners deserted by medical staff at a hospital in Iwaki, six miles from the Fukushima nuclear power station and inside the exclusion zone around the plant which continues to spew radiation into the atmosphere. > Most of the abandoned patients were in coma, and 14 died shortly after they were moved to an emergency centre in a nearby gym. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/568 "2011-03-19T14:18:13Z")
Snowboarder Bo wrote: “More alarmist, heart string-tuggin’ horrific calamitous tripe from the bleeding heart media-hypers.” I just cannot for the life of me recall when a natural disaster if this type epic proportion has not resulted in extensive casualties from all walks of life under all sorts of various circumstances. Oh well, you mess with Mother Nature, all bets are off. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/569 "2011-03-19T15:23:14Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Snowboarder Bo wrote: “More alarmist, heart string-tuggin’ horrific calamitous tripe from the bleeding heart media-hypers.” When anyone is left behind, injured or killed because of incompetence, negligence, or because of a deliberate action that could have been avoided, then it isn’t a good thing. But I agree I don’t see it much different than having buses sitting empty when they could have been used to evacuate residents during Katrina. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/570 "2011-03-19T19:08:15Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > When anyone is left behind, injured or killed because of incompetence, negligence, or because of a deliberate action that could have been avoided, then it isn’t a good thing. But I agree I don’t see it much different than having buses sitting empty when they could have been used to evacuate residents during Katrina. I’m not sure i take much comfort from the argument, “Hey, they’re no more incompetent than America was.” Does really shitty and incompetent and selfish behavior become somehow more acceptable as its incidence increases? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/571 "2011-03-19T19:12:06Z")
No. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/572 "2011-03-19T19:27:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Does really shitty and incompetent and selfish behavior become somehow more acceptable as its incidence increases? Obviously, if you want to dedicate drivers for buses and rehearse evacuations and spend billions fixing damns or making power plants invincible other than from world cracking events, then you are going to have risk. You live with it and deal with the results. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/573 "2011-03-19T19:43:05Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Obviously, if you want to dedicate drivers for buses and rehearse evacuations and spend billions fixing damns or making power plants invincible other than from world cracking events, then you are going to have risk. You live with it and deal with the results. Way to miss the point by a country mile. I’m not arguing about making power plants invincible. I’m talking specifically about the _response_ to disasters like this, and the ways in which incompetence or inefficiency or political damage control or simple ignorance compounds a tragic situation by failing to do things right. Some tragedies are unavoidable; it’s when the completely avoidable problems still occur that we need to ask what the fuck is going on. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/574 "2011-03-19T19:52:33Z")
It’s very unsettling that nobody has any technology to detect radiation leaks. Aside from holding something in your had. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/575 "2011-03-19T20:31:11Z")
What specific examples of incompetence or inefficiency or political damage control or simple ignorance are you complaining about, **mhendo**? What I’ve seen are citations like **Snowboarder Bo** posted, of people complaining to reporters about lack of communication (regarding specific conditions or actions they’re somehow well informed of), or examples like the Japanese soldiers who rescued elderly patients abandoned by civilian medical staff. These are provided as evidence that the same government that deployed the soldiers who rescued the patients doesn’t care, and that the government which ordered evacuations and followed those up with sweeps and inspections has no regard for public safety. It’s pretty easy to criticize government emergency response, but I reckon it’s a damn good thing most of the complainers will never get the chance to try doing it. Especially after a magnitude 9.0 quake and 35 foot tsunami have destroyed infrastructure (including roads and power transmission) and left tens of thousands missing or dead and has displaced somewhat more than half a million. The fact that the Japanese have managed the Fukushima situation without exposing their civilians to unhealthy levels of radiation, without provoking panic and in the midst of the worst natural calamity they’ve faced in the modern era is frankly amazing. The fact that major news media and some message board idiots are largely ignoring the refinery fires and hundreds of other localized disasters which happened as a result of the same calamity in order to focus on gaps in emergency response specifically associated with the nuke plants\* is sadly not surprising at all. \*And to make asinine little cutesy sarcastic nonsense comments like post # 574. Attempting to show… what, exactly? That **FXMastermind** - or any of the rest of us in this thread - is so much more clever and capable than the experts actually taking constructive actions at the scene, some of them at pretty fucking severe personal risk? Based on comments in this thread, I kinda doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/576 "2011-03-19T20:48:44Z")
I’m serious. Up until recently I thought they did have remote sensing and air sampling abilities, and they weren’t saying what was going on. Now it seems they actually don’t have any way to know what is going on. That’s messed up. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/577 "2011-03-19T22:05:59Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’m not arguing about making power plants invincible. No, what you’re doing is trying to armchair quarterback a natural disaster of epic proportions with man-made complexities strewn in you cannot even begin to comprehend. > [@xenophon41](#): > > It’s pretty easy to criticize government emergency response,… It’s easy to criticize anything when you are an armchair quarterback with sensibilities being drowned by incessant liberal media hype and heart string-tuggers like snoboarder boboy posting the unrefined drivel in threads like this. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/578 "2011-03-19T22:17:16Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > I’m serious. Up until recently I thought they did have remote sensing and air sampling abilities, and they weren’t saying what was going on. Now it seems they actually don’t have any way to know what is going on. > … For the good of all we should hold off on any judgments, pronouncements, alarms, warnings, opinions, comments, reports, concerns, actions, questions etc. until all the facts are definitively determined by the people authorized to make those determinations. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair to the pro-nuke crowd. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/579 "2011-03-19T22:29:57Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > I’m serious. Up until recently I thought they did have remote sensing and air sampling abilities, and they weren’t saying what was going on. Now it seems they actually don’t have any way to know what is going on. > > That’s messed up. Seriously. If by ‘remote sensing’, you mean in terms of air quality or radiation levels specific to a narrowly defined area, you’re right; we rely on instruments being located at the point of measurement. However, I believe broad atmospheric observations can be done at a distance (i.e. from orbit) which can be analyzed for air quality including the presence of identifiable gaseous or particulate contaminants. However, that’s not real useful if you want to establish precise measurements of small areas of localized radioactivity. Fortunately, northeastern Japan is being pretty heavily monitored by civilians, the Japanese and international governments and various world NGO’s. > [@Nadir](#): > > It’s easy to criticize anything when you are an armchair quarterback with sensibilities being drowned by incessant liberal media hype and heart string-tuggers like snoboarder boboy posting the unrefined drivel in threads like this. Unsurprisingly, I disagree. What does the media hype have to do with liberalism? And the concerns of the anti-nuclear power people are borne out of decades of official indoctrination re the dangers of radiation; this was part of mainly right wing Cold War fear mongering throughout the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. We’re still recovering from that. Add to that the very legitimate distrust of self interested market amorality and the tendencies of governments to suppress information they don’t like, and it’s easy to understand why people are cynical about nuclear power. Those who are more familiar with the engineering, scientific and regulatory realities should try and be persuasive without being dismissive. (Yes, I’m guilty of some dismissiveness. I guess I should thank **Nadir** and a few others for showing me how unattractive that is. Hopefully, the OP and others on the “anti” side are serving the same instructive purpose in their own way.) ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/580 "2011-03-19T22:47:44Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > For the good of all we should hold off on any judgments, pronouncements, alarms, … No, by all means keep it up. It servs to further solidify your personna as an over-indulgent nitwit scare mongering a good crisis. > [@xenophon41](#): > > Unsurprisingly, I disagree. What does the media hype have to do with liberalism? Unsurprisingly, you fail to see the forest for the trees. What do you think has all the “people” soul-searching their nuclear power souls at the present time? We’ll leave political characterization of the “people” aside for now, overlooking the fact that the media has and continues to over-sell the nuclear scare angle since day one. Liberalism (in the media) has nothing to do with that? You must be blind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=30)