# Nuclear meltdown! Holy Godzilla NOOOO!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389 "2011-03-12T08:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/661 "2011-03-20T23:28:16Z")
From the Wall St. Journal: [Plant’s Design, Safety Record Are Under Scrutiny](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704396504576204461929992144.html) It sounds like when you know you’re building on the ocean, you have to make your backup diesel generators safe from tsunamis. One way to do that, is to elevate them. Unfortunately, that makes them vulnerable to earthquakes. One solution would be to put the fuel tanks underground, but that didn’t occur to them or something. “Hindsight is 20-20,” they say. No really, they do: > [@](#): > > Hiro Hasegawa, a Tepco spokesman in Tokyo, said other ways of situating the generator could pose problems. “The reactors are some 100 meters away from the shore, and the rooms that house those backup generators are fairly watertight,” he said. “You could say we could’ve put them at a higher elevation, but that would make generators vulnerable to earthquakes.” > > “Obviously we have decided to keep the emergency diesel generators at a lower elevation by weighing those risks thoroughly,” he added. “Hindsight is 20-20.” ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/662 "2011-03-20T23:29:27Z")
All reactors depend on the ability to cool a problem. Any reactor, no matter how it’s built, if it suffers fuel rod melting, will breach. No metal or rock can withstand the heat from a nuclear pile out of control. But, and this is good news, studies and the best minds have determined that due to the thermal dispersion from reaching solid bedrock, there would be cooling due to heat dissipation through the rock, and a corium pile would not just keep boring down. As long as somebody can come up with a way to get boron to it before it reaches ground water, it could be stopped. So no America syndrome. (that is a terrible pun on China syndrome) Shoot me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/663 "2011-03-20T23:31:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So. If you are claiming that all the radiation picked up is of no consequence, it is incumbent upon you to prove it. People in Tokyo are refusing to buy food grown in the area because it shows radioactivity. If it were trace and irrelevant, the nuclear news machine would have trumpeted that fact. They have not. > [@TravisFromOR](#): > > Unlike you,\*\* GIGO\*\* can back up his claims. Indeed. [http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/recorded-radiation-levels-in-japan-no-threat-to-human-health-iaea/story-e6frfku0-1226024465494#ixzz1HBQBVkYN](http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/recorded-radiation-levels-in-japan-no-threat-to-human-health-iaea/story-e6frfku0-1226024465494#ixzz1HBQBVkYN) > [@](#): > > RADIATION levels being detected in Japan and beyond in the wake of Japan’s post-earthquake nuclear crisis do not pose any harm to human health, an IAEA expert says. > > “Regular dose information is now being received from 47 Japanese cities,” Graham Andrew, scientific and technical adviser to the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said. > > “Dose rates in Tokyo and other cities remain far from levels which would require action. In other words, they are not dangerous to human health.” > > The IAEA has just sent a radiation monitoring team to Japan to help authorities determine whether any dangerous radiation has been released from the stricken Fukushima nuclear plant, 250km northeast of Tokyo. > > “First measurements in Tokyo showed no indication of iodine 131 or cesium 137. These are fission products which come from the fuel,” Mr Andrew said. > > The team will move to the Fukushima region “as soon as possible” to continue monitoring there. > > The IAEA said important data about radiation levels by another UN agency that monitors for clandestine nuclear tests appeared to back up its assessment that current radiation readings posed no threat to human health. Incidentally it was the authorities monitoring the food supply that reported the increased levels, if the alarmists actually where right on their scary say so’s regarding the actions of the authorities, then the authorities would be hiding that. [http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html](http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html) ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/664 "2011-03-20T23:38:43Z")
If only there was some way to go out in the fields and villages and test for radioactive elements, and report that. Rather than waiting till crops get to market. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/665 "2011-03-20T23:40:36Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Your honorable concession is graciously accepted. What you replied to Waenara had very little to do regarding the meltdown point. Even in Chernobyl, some material did melt, but only after the reactor had exploded, and even that melted material was stopped by the concrete chambers made for that purpose under the reactor. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/666 "2011-03-20T23:44:42Z")
Good lard. Go read the Wikipedia article on Chernobyl. Before you type another word. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/667 "2011-03-20T23:44:51Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > No metal or rock can withstand the heat from a nuclear pile out of control. And yet you still don’t provide a cite for this assertion. Color me shocked :eek: :rolleyes: Also, nice use of weasel words. I especially like the use of “nuclear pile out of control”, which could be interpreted different ways depending how you look at it. And given that you don’t have a cite, we don’t have any context. What, exactly, does this mean? I’m sure a layman reading your post with no scientific background would think this applies to the Fukushima situation, with you alarmists sure making it seem like it’s totally out of control. Or maybe “out of control” would mean a core that’s at 100% or more and about to the explode a la Chernobyl. But Fukushima’s cores are shut down and only have decay heat, which is decreasing by the day. So are they still “out of control”? When come back bring cite. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/668 "2011-03-20T23:46:39Z")
The ignorance is shocking. But, true believers are often known to avoid reading anything with pesky facts in it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/669 "2011-03-20T23:48:27Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If only there was some way to go out in the fields and villages and test for radioactive elements, and report that. Rather than waiting till crops get to market. If only you would see how stupid is to move the goalposts. There are already testing for radioactive elements. You need a cite that shows that they are only doing the testing after the items go to market. Any progress on finding cites for your previous bullshit points? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/670 "2011-03-20T23:52:34Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > How can you say “it certainly can happen”? Has it _ever_ happened in before? Even with far shoddier construction, it didn’t happen at Chernobyl. It also didn’t happen at Three Mile Island. > > From the Wikipedia article cited upthread, it seems experts are conflicted over whether it could theoretically happen, and most models and consensus are that it’s extremely unlikely. But that doesn’t make is post “full of errors”, unless you can actually bring a cite to this thread that contradicts his statement that the secondary containment at Fukushima is designed specifically to contain a full meltdown, or that it wouldn’t be successful at doing so. It was within an hour of happening at TMI. Here is a CSMonitor article (a source I trust) that confirms your opinion that it cannot China Syndrome. I am still skeptical. > **[Japan's nuclear crisis and Chernobyl: key differences](https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2011/0313/Japan-s-nuclear-crisis-and-Chernobyl-key-differences)** > > Japan's nuclear crisis is spawning concerns about 'another Chernobyl,' but a number of American and European scientists are cautiously taking the edge off the worst fears. Why am I skeptical? Because I don’t believe that a full core meltdown of 5000 plus degrees can be held indefinitely by anything and that between a 5000 degree core and gravity it will melt anything. It is because the pro nuclear people have obviously lied and covered up the disadvantages of their product in full accord with my experience of human nature of people who have something to sell. The costs to the surrounding residents mean nothing to these people. Nothing. They are in the way of profits. Their attitude is screw them all. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/671 "2011-03-20T23:53:12Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If only there was some way to go out in the fields and villages and test for radioactive elements, and report that. Rather than waiting till crops get to market. Cite that they waited until the crops went to market. Seriously, I would like to know if they did. I have been googling, but most of the news articles are unclear on whether the elevated levels in milk and spinach were found on the farms, in the supply chain, or at the market. Apparently milk and spinach are the first plants where radiation would concentrate, so it’s good that the government is testing them. I found [this article](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42162299/ns/health/) (my emphasis added), which seems to imply that the spinach was caught before it was shipped, and the milk was still raw. Do they drink raw milk much in Japan (I seriously don’t know), or did they catch the contamination before the milk was processed? > [@](#): > > The safety of food and water was of particular concern. The government **halted shipments** of spinach from one area and **raw milk** from another near the nuclear plant after tests found iodine exceeded safety limits. But the contamination spread to spinach in three other prefectures and to more vegetables — canola and chrysanthemum greens. Tokyo’s tap water, where iodine turned up Friday, now has cesium. Rain and dust are also tainted. > > \ > > In all cases, the government said the radiation levels were too small to pose an immediate health risk. But Taiwan seized a batch of fava beans from Japan found with faint — and legal — amounts of iodine and cesium. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/672 "2011-03-20T23:55:16Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > The ignorance is shocking. But, true believers are often known to avoid reading anything with pesky facts in it. If you would care to post some facts that are relevant and specific to this situation, I would be pleased to read them. And for the 50th time, calling everyone “true believers” just because they don’t march in lockstep with you is hardly how you win friends and influence people to take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/673 "2011-03-21T00:03:02Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Good lard. Go read the Wikipedia article on Chernobyl. Before you type another word. Seriously. I don’t think you understand that even when mentioning meltdown, Wikipedia needs to clarify. Once gain, the mess of radioactivity was released by a chemical explosion and the core burning. Anything that remained that melted was captured by the concrete. The only mention of meltdown in the Wikipedia article: > **[Chernobyl disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster)** > > On 26 April 1986, the no. 4 reactor of the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant, located near Pripyat, Ukrainian SSR, Soviet Union (now Ukraine), exploded. With dozens of direct casualties, it is one of only two nuclear energy accidents rated at the maximum severity on the International Nuclear Event Scale, the other being the 2011 Fukushima nuclear accident. The response involved more than 500,000 personnel and cost an estimated 18 billion rubles (about $84.5 billion USD in 2025). It remains the T... > [@](#): > > With the bubbler pool gone, a \*\*meltdown \*\*was less likely to produce a powerful steam explosion. To do so, the molten core would now have to reach the water table below the reactor. To reduce the likelihood of this, it was decided to freeze the earth beneath the reactor, which would also stabilize the foundations. Using oil drilling equipment, injection of liquid nitrogen began on 4 May. It was estimated that 25 metric tons of liquid nitrogen per day would be required to keep the soil frozen at −100 °C.[6]:59 This idea[clarification needed] was soon scrapped and the bottom room where the cooling system would have been installed was filled with concrete. There was indeed melted core material, and this report shows that it was contained by the concrete bottom. > **[Chernobyl Accident 1986 - World Nuclear Association](https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-security/safety-of-plants/chernobyl-accident)** > > The Chernobyl accident in 1986 was the result of a flawed reactor design that was operated with inadequately trained personnel. Two Chernobyl plant workers died on the night of the accident, and a further 28 people died within a few weeks as a result... As it was a very close call, it is really a stretch to assume that nuclear planners of today did not make improvements on how to better contain a worse case meltdown where the containment vessel also melts. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/674 "2011-03-21T00:11:51Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > And for the 50th time, calling everyone “true believers” just because they don’t march in lockstep with you is hardly how you win friends and influence people to take you seriously. I’m convinced **FX** , like the OP, is engaging in trollery. They’ve both admitted they’re “venting” without concern for the truth or accuracy of their statements. Combine that with the provocative bullshit both have been spouting, the gross misrepresentations of opposing arguments and claims from both posters of “sarcasm and satire”, and you’ve got classic message board chain yanking. Starve 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/675 "2011-03-21T00:21:29Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Starve 'em. You’re right. DNFTT. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/676 "2011-03-21T00:42:43Z")
As I mentioned in the GD version of this thread, [here’s an interesting, cited radiation exposure chart](http://xkcd.com/radiation/) from XKCD. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/677 "2011-03-21T00:59:17Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’m convinced **FX** , like the OP, is engaging in trollery. They’ve both admitted they’re “venting” without concern for the truth or accuracy of their statements. Combine that with the provocative bullshit both have been spouting, the gross misrepresentations of opposing arguments and claims from both posters of “sarcasm and satire”, and you’ve got classic message board chain yanking. > > Starve 'em. Venting has very little risk according to your posts. Heck, even if I exploded in a hydrogen rage it would pose very little risk. Even if I had a complete meltdown, the containment precautions here in The Pit would keep it from contaminating the public at large. In any event, I’m not admitting to trollery. I think nuclear power is a very poor and dangerous investment, particularly to those that have no voice in the various monetary and health risks. I am pleased that I sold my PG&E stock in the late 80s. I was invested in nuclear and it was a huge bust. Diablo Canyon was billions over budget. The public was lied to for years about TMI. At this point it seems that two of the reactors at Fukushima partially melted down, it is difficult to say how badly. Radiation has leaked and there have been a number of hydrogen bubble explosions. People who never had a choice were evacuated from their homes, food is contaminated and people are in the hospital, most likely with radiation poisoning. And the pubic is still largely in the dark. No new nuclear plants around me please. We’ve got several hundred new giant wind turbines that I like just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/678 "2011-03-21T01:06:09Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think nuclear power is a very poor and dangerous investment, particularly to those that have no voice in the various monetary and health risks. I posted this in the GD thread but may as well toss it out here: [Per terrawatt/hour of energy generated, coal kills 161 people - compared to 0.04 deaths from nuclear](http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html) If it is a bad investment it is because knee jerk reactionaries like FX who could not give a rat’s ass for facts scream in fear over what they do not understand thus increasing costs. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/679 "2011-03-21T04:20:07Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > And yet you still don’t provide a cite for this assertion. Color me shocked :eek: :rolleyes: > > Also, nice use of weasel words. Let’s try it with simple words, so you can follow the information. > [@](#): > > If there is not the right amount of moderator present, or the cooling system fails, a meltdown can occur. This means the reactor gets too hot and fuel (often rods containing uranium-235) is damaged. Uranium starts to melt at a little more than 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit, but even at lower temperatures serious damage can be done to the reactor. Whether radioactive material is released depends on details of the failure. > > In the worst case, melted uranium can pool at the bottom of the reactor chamber and melt the containment vessel. Radioactive material can also be released into the atmosphere with steam and hot gases. [http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2011/03/21/how\_does\_a\_nuclear\_reactor\_work\_and\_what\_does\_it\_mean\_when\_it\_melts\_down/](http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2011/03/21/how_does_a_nuclear_reactor_work_and_what_does_it_mean_when_it_melts_down/) Is that simple enough? If the fuel slumps to the bottom, and is out of control, it melts through the containment vessel. Then it burns the concrete or rock below that. That is, in simple terms, the worst case scenario. Unless it also blows up and spreads material all over, and high into the air. Or if it also burns and releases material that way. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/680 "2011-03-21T04:27:10Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Let’s try it with simple words, so you can follow the information. > > [http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2011/03/21/how\_does\_a\_nuclear\_reactor\_work\_and\_what\_does\_it\_mean\_when\_it\_melts\_down/](http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2011/03/21/how_does_a_nuclear_reactor_work_and_what_does_it_mean_when_it_melts_down/) > > Is that simple enough? If the fuel slumps to the bottom, and is out of control, it melts through the containment vessel. Then it burns the concrete or rock below that. That is, in simple terms, the worst case scenario. Unless it also blows up and spreads material all over, and high into the air. > > Or if it also burns and releases material that way. What part of “can” and “worst case scenario” do you not understand? _Can_ does not equate to _will._ _Worst case scenario_ does not equate to _every day occurrence._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=35)