# Nuclear meltdown! Holy Godzilla NOOOO!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389 "2011-03-12T08:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1661 "2011-04-15T17:08:38Z")
At the risk of sounding nuts, I’ll argue that conservation and responsible use of electricity for reasons other than saving money are counter productive. At the risk of sounding like a pure capitalist (of which I am not) we want to develop as much relatively safe electricity as possible because of all the things we can do with electricity in multiplying work. Conservation for the purpose of not developing the resource (as opposed to being tight) tends to move away from increasing supply and reducing demand, which means less electricity overall in the chain. An oversupply is better because it reduces the kwh cost and leaves surplus for things like water desalination during non-peak hours. As much as I now like Jimmy Carter and sweaters, we need more windmills and solar. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1662 "2011-04-15T17:34:28Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Wow, **gonzo** , what a compelling argument! > > You’ve sure convinced me and all the other people in this thread who have been arguing that energy efficiency and responsible energy use is a waste of time. > > Wait, no-one has actually been making that argument. I swear that, between you and **FXM** , this thread looks more like a Dadaist artwork than a rational discussion. Let me help you. the argument has been made we need lots of nuclear plants. But, if we can cut our use down a long way, we would not need them. can you follow that trail. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1663 "2011-04-15T18:29:57Z")
So what is going on with the plants now? Can someone other then The Second Stone, FXMastermind, levdrakon or gonzomax give me an update? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1664 "2011-04-15T18:35:32Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > So what is going on with the plants now? Can someone other then The Second Stone, FXMastermind, levdrakon or gonzomax give me an update? Is there some reason you can’t get your updates from the same source Xtisme does? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1665 "2011-04-15T18:36:37Z")
[QUOTE=pedescribe] So what is going on with the plants now? Can someone other then The Second Stone, FXMastermind, levdrakon or gonzomax give me an update? [/QUOTE] [Here](http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html) is the current situation, as long as you believe what the IAEA is reporting. > [@](#): > > On Friday, 15 April 2011, the IAEA provided the following information on the current status of nuclear safety in Japan: > > 1. Current Situation > > Overall, the situation at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant remains very serious but there are early signs of recovery in some functions, such as electrical power and instrumentation. > > Changes to Fukushima Daiichi Plant Status > > The transfer of contaminated water from the trench of the Unit 2 Turbine Building to the condenser started on 12 April and continued on 13 April until approximately 660 tonnes were transferred. > > To minimize the movement of contaminated water to the open sea, temporary boards to stop water (3 steel plates in total) were installed on 13 April on the ocean-side of the Inlet Bar Screen of Unit 2. > > Silt fences have also been installed in the inlet canal and in front of the Inlet Bar Screens of Units 1, 2, 3 and 4. On 11 April, a silt screen was installed at the southern end of the inlet canal. The installation in front of the Inlet Bar Screen of Units 3 and 4 was completed on 13 April and for Units 1 and 2 on 14 April. > > As of 14 April, white “smoke” was still observed coming from Units 2 and 3. White “smoke” was also observed coming from Unit 4 on 14 April. > [@](#): > > On 13 April, Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) reported that the Tokyo Electric Power Compan (TEPCO) had begun to install a backup line for providing fresh water to the Reactor Pressure Vessels (RPVs) at Units 1, 2, and 3. > > In Unit 1, fresh water is being continuously injected into the RPV through the feed-water line at an indicated flow rate of 6 m3/h using a temporary electric pump with off-site power. In Units 2 and 3, fresh water is being continuously injected through the fire extinguisher lines at an indicated rate of 7 m3/h using temporary electric pumps with off-site power. > > Nitrogen gas is being injected into the Unit 1 containment vessel to reduce the possibility of hydrogen combustion within the containment vessel. The pressure in this containment vessel has stabilised. The pressure in the RPV is increasing as indicated on one channel of instrumentation. The other channel shows RPV pressure as stable. In Units 2 and 3 Reactor Pressure Vessel and Drywell pressures remain at atmospheric pressure. > > RPV temperatures remain above cold shutdown conditions in all Units, (typically less than 95 °C). In Unit 1, the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 197 °C and at the bottom of the RPV is 119 °C. In Unit 2, the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 150 °C. In Unit 3 the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 91 °C and at the bottom of the RPV is 121 °C. > > On 14 April, a concrete pump truck, with a capacity of 50t/h, began spraying fresh water to the Unit 3 spent fuel pool. In Unit 4, a sample of the water in the spent fuel pool was collected for analysis. > > There has been no change in status in Unit 5 and 6 and the Common Spent Fuel Storage Facility. There is also a section on that link above talking about the radiation monitoring going on, the the current levels they are seeing both around the plant, in the water and further out, if you are interested. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1666 "2011-04-15T19:39:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Let me help you. the argument has been made we need lots of nuclear plants. But, if we can cut our use down a long way, we would not need them. can you follow that trail. God but you’re a fucking moron. You have no concept of how much energy this country uses, do you, or how much can be saved by energy efficiency measures like the ones you mentioned? Are you willing to give up your computer, and your access to places like Google? Because one of the biggest areas of growth in energy use in America right now is the multiplying server farms and associated infrastructure related to computing and the internet. This isn’t just about learning to turn lights off when you leave the room, or adding some building insulation and double-glazing. Even with the best of intentions regarding more efficient and responsible energy use, our energy needs are still going to grow. As i’ve noted numerous times, if we could satisfy all these needs with clean, renewable energy sources, i’d be the first to jump on the bandwagon. But every study i’ve read suggests that this simply is not going to be possible. Anyway, i’m not sure why i’m engaging you as if you were interested in the actual issues. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1667 "2011-04-16T17:52:44Z")
Solar gets cheaper according to the Bloomberg [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-05/solar-energy-costs-may-already-rival-coal-spurring-installation-boom.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-05/solar-energy-costs-may-already-rival-coal-spurring-installation-boom.html) ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1668 "2011-04-16T18:36:26Z")
Nuclear gets more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1669 "2011-04-16T19:30:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Solar gets cheaper according to the Bloomberg > > [Solar Power May Already Rival Coal, Prompting Installation Surge - Bloomberg](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-05/solar-energy-costs-may-already-rival-coal-spurring-installation-boom.html) Well, this isn’t exactly news, as it’s been clear for quite a few years now that solar, like so much other technology, gets cheaper over time, and that it would inevitably approach and even surpass the cheapness of other energy sources. But, to the extent that it is news, it’s obviously good news. Especially in places like southern California, where we have so much yearly sunlight, it seems crazy not to be making more use of solar energy. If and when we have the money to buy a place here in SoCal, the first thing i’ll look to do is put a decent-sized array of panels on the roof. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1670 "2011-04-16T19:41:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > God but you’re a fucking moron. You have no concept of how much energy this country uses, do you, or how much can be saved by energy efficiency measures like the ones you mentioned? > > Are you willing to give up your computer, and your access to places like Google? Because one of the biggest areas of growth in energy use in America right now is the multiplying server farms and associated infrastructure related to computing and the internet. This isn’t just about learning to turn lights off when you leave the room, or adding some building insulation and double-glazing. > > Even with the best of intentions regarding more efficient and responsible energy use, our energy needs are still going to grow. As i’ve noted numerous times, if we could satisfy all these needs with clean, renewable energy sources, i’d be the first to jump on the bandwagon. But every study i’ve read suggests that this simply is not going to be possible. > > Anyway, i’m not sure why i’m engaging you as if you were interested in the actual issues. [US energy use chart shows we waste more than half of our energy](http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-energy_1.html) I am sorry you stay stupid but saving energy is an extremely effective way to cut the need for nuclear plants until clean and safe energy is viable. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1671 "2011-04-16T20:24:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [US energy use chart shows we waste more than half of our energy](http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-energy_1.html) I am sorry you stay stupid but saving energy is an extremely effective way to cut the need for nuclear plants until clean and safe energy is viable. There are different ways of saving energy. Your own link shows that most of the energy losses in the system are due to things like “waste heat from power plants, vehicles, and light bulbs.” While light bulbs might be part of the equation that individuals can influence, the vast majority of wasted energy comes from transportation, which is a very different energy efficiency problem than simply making energy efficient offices, which was your original point. Your link shows that 40% of America’s energy use goes to transportation. I’m a big supporter of public transportation, and i fully agree with the argument made in the story that our obsession with cars and big houses and sprawling suburbs have contributed to our escalating energy use. But this is, in many fundamental ways, a very different energy efficiency problem from the issue of generating electric power, which is the main question we’re addressing in this thread. Looking at total energy use is important, but while the vast majority of cars on the road are run by fossil fuels, the question of energy use in general is somewhat different from energy use as it relates to electricity production. While overall energy use could be reduced considerably by changing the way we move around, such dramatic changes in American transportation are very unlikely in the short or even the longer term, and reduction in use through things like building efficiency are very unlikely to offset our society’s spiraling demands for electrical power. Conservation and efficiency are Good Things, and i support every step to promote them, but we need to be thinking about generation as well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1672 "2011-04-16T22:57:44Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Conservation and efficiency are Good Things, and i support every step to promote them, but we need to be thinking about generation as well. Stand back everyone! mhendo is going to be thinking. Put on your safety glasses and buy some potassium iodine pills. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1673 "2011-04-16T23:16:22Z")
> **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/?err_code=404&err_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2011%2F04%2F16%2Fjapan-nuclear-reactor-leaks_n_850058.html)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. And the hits keep on coming. The radioactivity in the sea is going up again. It is far from being controlled. Hell. it has only been a month. Can’t expect too much. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1674 "2011-04-16T23:49:29Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Stand back everyone! mhendo is going to be thinking. I’ll let you know what it feels like, if that would give you some vicarious pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1675 "2011-04-17T01:06:12Z")
It would! ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1676 "2011-04-17T02:25:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > While light bulbs might be part of the equation that individuals can influence, the vast majority of wasted energy comes from transportation, which is a very different energy efficiency problem than simply making energy efficient offices, which was your original point. And what most fluff heads don’t understand is that if you replace fossil fuels in cars with electric, that energy equivalent to the fossil fuels (the 40% you mentioned) has to come from somewhere. That is a lot of plants, wind farms and area taken up by solar panels. The other solution is that we all go back to being serfs and never traveling more than a couple of miles from home in our lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1677 "2011-04-17T02:42:56Z")
Nonsense. I know it’s the pit, but at least try to present an argument that could be possible. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1678 "2011-04-17T23:35:16Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Nonsense. I know it’s the pit, but at least try to present an argument that could be possible. mhendo is going to allow us to vicariously “feel” what it is like when he thinks. I’m waiting. With pie. Radioactive pie. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1679 "2011-04-17T23:47:30Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > … if you replace fossil fuels in cars with electric, that energy equivalent to the fossil fuels (the 40% you mentioned) has to come from somewhere. That is a lot of plants, wind farms and area taken up by solar panels. Well, to be fair that part is true. It’s the next part that is nonsense. > [@Uzi](#): > > The other solution is that we all go back to being serfs and never traveling more than a couple of miles from home in our lifetime. What the hell? You really see it that way? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389/1680 "2011-04-18T03:02:59Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > What the hell? You really see it that way? What is the consequences of being tied to a single location because you can’t afford to move or travel to another job location? Labour mobility is one of the reasons we have the lifestyle we currently enjoy today. It allows the best people to get to the locations they are wanted when needed. Right now I can buy a house in a location many miles away from where I work. Because of that I can change jobs with little worry (obviously there is a commute time component) as to how I get to work. Without that ability to travel at will, I am tied to my current workplace. It is no different than those people who buy a house in a town dedicated to one industry (lumber for example). They are tied to that employer and have few options outside of it. If the employer closes down they lose the equity in their houses, if the employer wants to cut wages, then there is little they can do other than move. Fossile fuels have to be replaced with an equivalent mechanism for people to move from one position to another. Whether it be from public transport, electric vehicles, or what have you. The problem with public transit is that it is demand driven. It doesn’t kick in until there is a demand for it which limits its effectiveness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-meltdown-holy-godzilla-noooo/574389.md?page=85)