Nuclear power

MAGunter - you’re claiming, prima facie, that I’m going to lie when I tell you that I’ve no problems with having a nuke plant built within 15 miles of my home. So why ask the question? It doesn’t matter that I lived about 35 meters from not one, but two, D2G plants for several years. I would far, far rather live near Yucca Mountain, or any operating or formerly operating US nuke plant than to live in the same proximity to any kind of oil processing facility. Not is the risk of a catastrophic failure causing harm to me less at the nuke plant - it smells better to be around.

Snowboarder Bo, the question I have for you is why do you believe that the temporary pools that are storing the waste, as it is, now, are safer than the ‘boondoggle’ that you’re calling Yucca Mountain? At the moment we already have a need for a long-term waste storage facility for nuclear waste, and making it one centralized collection, processing and storage facility makes more sense to me than trying to set up 50 or 104 seperate facilities with the ineevitable duplication that will occur in facilities for sites that will only need to be used for a relatively short period of time: 30-50 years. But will still need all the storage and long-term protections that Yucca Mountain needs.

At the moment, while you’re complaining about the potential risks of storing this waste near the growing metropolis of Las Vegas, there are smaller absolute quantities in storage closer to larger metropolitan areas, such as NYC, LA and other cities. It may not be PC to say this, but at this point - the good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

Oh, very much pro-nuke. And former US Navy Rad sponge. But would like to see the AEC given teeth like ORSE’s, to be honest. And would far prefer to see pebble-bed plants built, or even more HTGRs. PWR’s have a number of advantages, esp. for military applications - but they do have drawbacks as well.

A few other comments: One thing that I haven’t seen discussed here is that the ability of long-term radiological hazards to go into solution to actually poison aquifers. AIUI most of the isotopes of concern for the long term decay problems are all heavy metals - elements that do not go easily into solution, and can only be suspended in turbulent water flows. The regular inspections of the Thresher wreck site show that there is very little tendency for the fission product wastes to actually migrate. And the catastrophe that hit Thresher was such that the whole boat shattered like glass. (Well, okay, it imploded after exceeding test depth - little, itty-bitty pieces parts.) That includes the reactor core AIUI. So, in a worst case scenario - no imbedding of contolled amounts of fission products into glass, no storage in a historically dry location, and massive corrosive elements available to remove all fission products from any physical matrix they may be in after the accident - and the waste products are not moving outside the wreck site.

For those of you who’ve mentioned the idea of giving the Navy responsibility for all nuclear power I have some countervailing concerns. One of the things that makes Navy Nuclear operation so safe is the regular casualty training done on the operating plants. I can’t imagine that NAVSEA08 would want to cease this practice if given responsibility for civilian plants. It would be possible, too. But there are some effects that are not going to popular with neighbors nor customers.
[ul]
[li]Unlike a Naval plant, civilian plants are designed, and try to operate at, for 95-100% power generation all the time. Because of this, there’s little excess capacity for emergencies or equipment failure - which will also affect how involved and realistic casualty training can be.[/li][li]Because a civilian plant spends most of its time operating at full load - and was designed for that - its most wearing operations are the rare start ups and shut downs. Adding those, a standard part of casualty training, will increase the most damaging wear on the plant: similar to the effect of running your car for a series of ten 10 mile trips instead of one 100 mile trip. [/li][li]Whatever you, I, or most educated persons may feel about the safe operation of a nuclear plant, currently any time a casualty drill is going to affect the plant’s output, or even visible profile (Steam from the cooling towers stopping, for example worries some people.) there are a large number of regulatory and and public notification hoops to go through, which will have the effect of reducing casualty training effectiveness by eliminating the element of surprise. [/li][li]Finally, people get upset if their TV’s, stoves, A/C’s or stereo’s fluctuate because the power company felt they had to ‘play’ with their power plant. Casualty training, even the extremely limited amount done currently in civilian plants, is very unpopular with customers. [/li][/ul]

I’m not all that sure that the Navy could run civilian plants the way the run their own plants, now. Incorporating more of Adm. Rickover’s attitudes into the civilian industry would be good, in my opinion (and would have prevented TMI), but I don’t think that a straight switch to Rickover’s methods will work.

And, again, I’m not saying that I feel that fission power is ideal. I simply prefer it to coal. By a very large margin.

Fair enough.

The assumption of a lie is a bit much.

But I would still wager that most pro-nuke folks live in a place far away from them, and would oppose them being built near them.

Most people want a plant built in a rural area (not near them) and the waste dumped in a desert (not near them).

If you tried, for instance, to sell NYC on building a plant on Manhattan (despite the obvious impossibilities) and burying the waste near the Statue of Liberty you’d be shot in that town.

IMO, people generally support nuclear power only if it’s not near them and the waste is even further away. After all, despite the odds, there are always risks.

I’m very pro-nuke; it seems a no-brainer to me. But I was interested in the solar panels on houses discussion, which Sam seemed to dismiss due to being in Canada.

The last time I checked, Maine wasn’t a desert region, and the Maine Solar House seems to be humming along just fine:

It really is a viable approach.

MAGUnter, precisely what point are you trying to make when point out that the NIMBY effect comes into play with nuclear power plants? For the moment I won’t even dispute that it’s true, but I have to ask “So what?”.

It seems to me that the most it tells us is that people have irrational fears of nuclear power. Many people who verbally support integration, multiculturalism and so forth would object to black people living in their street too. All that tells us is that people are either liars or prone to irrational fears and prejudices. And I really don’t see the pertinence of an observation that people are frequently liars or irrational. It’s true, we all know it’s true, so why introduce it. It doesn’t tell us that either blacks or nuclear reactors are an actual threat to their families.

Realistcially it probably just tells us that the minority who suport nuclear know that building a reactor close to their house will deflate their property price. Hell, I wouldn’t want a sewage tretament works built in my street either. That’s not because it’s unsafe or even because it smells. It’s because I owuld lose $50, 000 on my house overnight.

At worst this whole thing is an appeal to popularity. Most people fear nuclear power, therefore it must be worthy of being feared. That makes no sense.

So can you please explain what point you are trying to make with this point?

Ideally I’d like a reference to support your contention that most pro-nuclear people hold a NIMBY attitude, though I accept that such information might be pratcically hard to get. Unfortunately ultimately that just makes it your baseless opinion. I’m inclined to belive you, but that does’t mean that you are correct. It may just mean we are both making the same mistake.

Ellis Dee

The town I currently live in, Denton, TX, actually has many examples of the efficacy of this. I’ve seen quite a few homes that not only have the solar panels on the roof for power, but also use solar energy to hear their (quite large) water tanks.

One was a neighbor of mine, and he said it was dirt cheap to do in the long run.

There are also the ‘mound homes’ that are built into a mound of dirt to conserve electricity, and they’re apparently quite efficient as well.

It makes quite a bit of sense here, but I’m not so sure it would in, say, Green Bay or Seattle.

In short, I won’t pull out the bullshit. I don’t have one.

My experiences are based on, well, experiences.

I really don’t feel Nuclear Power is a bad thing, that’s not to say that I’m never a little concerned that a northern wind and a couple mistakes at Glen Rose won’t cover my house in nuclear material. What seems like an 1/2 inch on a map is enough to drift to Dallas with a nice Gulf Wind.

Is it probable? no!

But I do know that when that plant was built. residents gave hell until the plant agreed to pay ridiculous education/emergency costs, allowing the residents to live in a high employment area virtually tax free.

All that said, the point I’m trying to make is simple.

Even beyond property values, few people want to live near a Nuclear Power Plant. If you get stuck there you can try to get out, but it’s not a hugely popular area to live unless like Glen Rose you’re able to exploit the company for millions.

I’ve very pro-nuke. To answer MAGunter, I currently live (checkin GooglEarth) 18.54 miles from Koeberg Nuclear power plant, but I have lived closer to it in the past. Most of Central Cape Town is that close to it.

I believe we currently store high-level waste at the plant, and ship the low-level waste to a desert facility where the high-level waste will also go, when enough’s accumulated.

I think nuclear is great. In SA, it uses fuel that’s mined locally, either as uranium ore or as a goldmining by-product. More nuke plants would make us more self-sufficient, and there are plans for PBMRs at the Koeberg site.

Solar and wind are all very good, and I support efforts to diversify (not all eggs in one basket syndrome), but they’re not enough, and never will be. There’s also been some wave/current studies done here that sound nice. Anything’s better than the coal we currently use, the towns upcountry that generate coal power are smoky hellholes.

Oil and gas are right out. We don’t have the geology for geothermal or the rivers for hydro, plus that one’s a real ecological disaster. I know because my wife does studies for a new water-supply dam, and that takes up a large patch of sensitive terrain. Any hydro ones would just take up more, even if we had the rivers for it.

So Nuke’s our best bet, and not because it’s the best of a bad lot, but because it’s the best, period… Nuke waste is tiny and not as dangerous as people sometimes think.

As opposed to Maine?

I guess the lesson to be learned is that you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Here in Arkansas they’ve damned, I mean dammed, up a few rivers and they’ve changed a great deal since then. Instead of being warm water rivers they’re now very cold throughout the year. Water that takes 24 hours to go from the dam to where I fish still maintains a temperature of about 55-60 in the middle of August. It’s a given that just about any effective form of producing energy is going to have an impact on the environment.

One more dam joke. What did the fish say when he ran into a wall?

Damn.

Marc

Why is there a need for a centralized long-term storage facility? The waste is currently stored in more than 100 on-site facilities and there have been no problems. Where is the need to transport it across the country, exposing millions to risks, when it has been stored on site for more than 40 years without incident or problem? Why does it make more sense to you to expose all those people to risk transporting it to a place that is geologically unsuitable for the task?

If you check my posts, I pointed out that when the original NWPA was passed in 1982 it called for a geological repository. When it became clear that Yucca Mountain was not geologically suitable (it is prone to seismic activity and is over an aquifier), data was falsified, fabricated, and the plans were changed to include extensive man-made repository facilities. The project could not meet the original specifications, so the specifications were changed to something that could be met. That is not good science and should not be greeted as good policy.

Nevada currently has no nuclear power facilities. Why should we accept this waste when we neither produced any nor benefitted from it’s production? The only answer is that it was not felt that Nevada had a large enough population nor the will to fight such a plan. We refer to the 1987 NWPA amendments, therefore, as the “screw Nevada” bill. And we don’t want to be screwed. Not even if you buy us dinner. And take us dancing. And promise to respect us in the morning. Nuh uh.

Exposing more than 1/4 of the population to risks from accident, which the DOE says are inevitably going to happen, is not good policy. The nuclear industry [del]bullied[/del] lobbied Congress and eventually the feds agreed to take custody of all the waste produced by this industry. The need was to make this waste someone else’s problem. The state of Nevada does not want it. The people who produced it and benefitted most from it’s production do not want it. No one wants it.

And the industry continues to produce more and more. As I have also said earlier, Yucca Mountain, even if it begins accepting the waste, will eventually reach capacity. What then? There is no plan after that. Yucca is the only site that has ever been studied. For 18 years, the only plan is to ship it all to Yucca. Who will volunteer their backyard for the next storage facility, one that will inevitably be needed? I have asked this question at least 3 times in this thread now, and have yet to see a response.

Yucca Mountain is a classic case, as I said, of people simply trying to sweep a problem under a metaphorical rug. Unfortunately, the rug is in someone else’s house. Even more unfortunately, the people are home and don’t want the problem. Forcing the state of Nevada to accept this waste at gunpoint, which is what may eventually happen, just isn’t right.

This is a classic example of the Fallacy of the Broken Window (i.e. by this sort of analysis, hooligans who go around throwing rocks through windows are social benefactors because they “create jobs” for window manufacturers and installers).

:rolleyes:

How is this analogy relevant at all?

The solar panels serve a necessary and benefical function on their own, but require maintenance. People will need to do the maintenance. Hiring trained professionals to do the work will reduce the number of unskilled, untrained people that have injurious mishaps and will prevent damage to the equipment. Just like we have plumbers, window washers, chimney sweeps and high voltage power linemen.

Your analogy is just throwing rocks.

In producing radioacitve material 6 days a week for 40 years, we’ve never had any shipping containers break. Not by ground, train or airplane. We have had spills on the shipping containers, but those have been in the mCi range, with no one beign exposed to a recordable level of radiation. I think the fears of accidents are far over-hyped.

I for one wouldn’t mind a reactor built around me, however it wouldn’t really fit anywhere. The one that was shut down up in Zion would be a nice place to refurbish Solar and wind power are nice in moderate usage, but the power grid is going to require either fossil or nuclear power. Count me down as for nuclear.

Not in my backyard sydrome is pretty common and neighborhoods rally against everything from low income housing to Super Wal-Marts. It doesn’t mean they don’t like income housing or even Wal-Mart but anyone who owns a home is worried about property values and the neighborhood. Granted, I wouldn’t want someone to build a nuclear plant close to my home but then I wouldn’t want a paper mill either. I did live within the killzone of the Pine Bluff arsenal though.

Marc

Please pay attention to what you already posted. You asked people to look at the potential jobs created by a net increase in repair work. Other posters pointed out that this was a foolish idea and that these were a net drag on the economy.

Fossil fuel waste is just as deadly, but it’s not as easy to point your finger at because we pump it into the atmosphere for everybody to breathe. I suspect greater damage has been done to the health of the general population from fine particulate matter than has ever been caused by high level radioactive waste. There is speculation that very fine PM (under 100nM) might be one of the causative agents behind Alzheimer’s disease.

So, is it better to concentrate the waste into one small area of very high toxicity/lethality or spread it over the general population (with bias against densely populated metro areas) at a lower level of toxicity? I think the latter might be more irresponsible than the former.

I’m pro-nuclear power, but would like to see advancements in solar as well. It just seems like such a waste that we can’t make use of all the energy spilling onto the face of our planet from the sun (except for a fraction of a percent) and yet this energy is what makes the very biosphere go.

Insofar as they perform that function in a less efficient manner than other alternative means to the same end (e.g. nuclear power plants), using them rather than the alternatives is a net loss.

To tweak the analogy, this argument implies that hooligans who throw rocks through windows with notes wrapped around them are a boon, since they serve a necessary and beneficial function (disseminating information) while generating a need for maintenance work.

Well, essentially all of our power (except for nuclear, geothermal, and tidal) is derived from the Sun’s wasteful output; fossil fuels, wind power, wave action, et cetera are all various mechanism for converting the Sun’s radiant heat into mechanical and chemical energy. It does seem like a rather poor design, though, doesn’t it? If I were the Supreme Architect and Prime Authoritat of Our Corporeal Domains in the Terrestrial and Celestial Spheres I would design a planet to wrap around the sun, shell-like, in order to make the most efficient use of my Radiative Solar Engine and allow for the greatest surface area to Be Fruitful and Multiply. (I would have to tweak the physical laws a bit in order to make it stable, but as The Great Pastry Chef that shouldn’t be too tough.) It just goes to show you that even Great Thinkers tend to miss important details.

As for the discussion, it seems that, as in the Real World, many people have already formed an opinion regarding nuclear power and are dedicated to maintaining that stance. Proponents largely gloss over some of the more serious issues such as storage of waste; detractors wave hyperbolic, beyond-worst-case scenerios. The facts, problems, and potential solutions become secondary in the discussion. Nuclear fission power does have its potential hazards, and these are worsened by our schitzophrenic regulatory attitudes. The Yucca Mountian Repository does have its significant potential problems, and while I’m not aware of the alleged falsified and fabricated data (cite please, Bo), it was selected primarily based upon political concerns and perceived lack of opposition; and furthermore underlying a short-sighted policy of not developing and investing in reprocessing/breeding technologies that would make the long-term storage of most high level waste unnecessary.

Meanwhile, we maintain a high level of dependence upon foreign energy sources and pump pollution by the ton into the atmosphere. This is like worrying about the fear of a staph infection from a dirty scalpel while suffering from peritonitis. The concerns are real but addressible, while delay means greater suffering and eventual demise.

Stranger

You know, you’re not helping the pro-nuke with insults and faulty ideas.
Building codes are revised for greater safety constantly.
Florida has finally begun to put in some building codes for the “Known” hurricanes that can hit them. When Norm on this Old House visited Florida after Hurricane Andrew, he couldn’t get over the lack of strength in the houses. He was use to New England Snow load requirements and thought you might want to build houses to withstand a hurricane passing by.
Whether you personally like Snowboarder or not or his ideas. They are logical arguments not character attacks.

What if terrorists hit it with an anti-tank missile?

Put it this way - suppose the nuclear industry agreed to store all their waste on site. Would you support expanded use of nuclear power then?

Regards,
Shodan