# Nuclear Power **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752 "2011-04-01T10:32:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/181 "2011-06-26T05:16:02Z")
[QUOTE=FXMastermind] Embankment, rolled-earth and chalk-fill, the kind of dams that can fail, and fail in a catastrophic manner. Check the wiki articles on them. It’s not a secret. [/QUOTE] Any kind of dam can fail. Do you have any evidence that any of the dams upstream to the nuclear plant are in imminent danger of failing or are inherently unsafe/unstable? That was the actual question I was asking for a cite on. > [@](#): > > They have been releasing over a million gallons a second to try and save the dams. It’s actually quite serious. They don’t risk flooding nuclear power plants on a whim. Why yes…I already knew that they hadn’t released the water as a lark or for the hell of it. However, your cite doesn’t show either that any of the upstream dams are in danger of failing or that earthen dams are inherently unsafe. -XT ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/182 "2011-06-26T14:12:03Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > They have been releasing over a million gallons a second to try and save the dams. It’s actually quite serious. They don’t risk flooding nuclear power plants on a whim. Therefore dams bursting must be a worse disaster than fracked up nuclear power plants because otherwise why would they do it? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/183 "2011-06-26T14:33:43Z")
Well, if they save don’t the dams (6 of them) by flooding everybody downriver, (even if it means fucking up a couple of reactors), the dam will fail, so it’s not like they have any choice. They have to save the dams. If the first one goes they all go. Then everything goes. All the way to the Gulf of Mexico. The really and truly serious problem is, even if the engineers say, “Hey, this dam is starting to fail, we have maybe a couple of days at best”, everybody can evacuate. People might even have time to grab shit and valuables and get out of the way. But even if they tell the nuclear people they have a month to clear out, there is no way to make the nuclear plant safe. The essential problem is made clear. Even if you give them 2 months warning, say they have two months to get the fuel out of the plant before it will be destroyed, they can’t do it. The plant is already flooded, and even with perfect conditions they have no way to simply load up the 6,000 tons of highly radioactive fuel rods and move them. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/184 "2011-06-26T14:47:43Z")
I’m really really praying for a miracle, and that the worst flooding in history, which is happening right now, I really pray it doesn’t take out the reactors. From what I am reading in the reports today, it’s going to be touch and go. The good news is levees all over the place are failing and the water is spreading out, rather than rushing down river. It’s no doubt it is going to be the worst flood in that area ever, but as long as they can save the nuclear plants, it will be forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/185 "2011-06-26T15:12:28Z")
As Arnold Gundersen said, nuclear power plants and sand bags aren’t things you should hear in the same sentence. I’ve heard this is the worst flooding in 40 years. Well, 40 years isn’t exactly the Pleistocene, now is it? Just like Fukushima, the builders have had ample foreknowledge and time to prepare for exactly this scenario, but it wasn’t in the budget and was apparently hand waved away as an “acceptable loss” if it did. Most likely, it was simply scoffed at as “inconceivable!” We don’t need a massive radiation release for these things to get broke, and stay broke, at huge taxpayer cost. How’s Minot’s nuclear ICBMs doing? I’ve been there, way back in my arms-control days in the military. They’re designed to get a little wet of course, and my faith in the military’s ability to protect their nuclear toys is far greater than any faith I have in civilian profit-motivated safely preparedness. Still, things get expensive fast when it comes to nuke. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/186 "2011-06-26T15:13:00Z")
From the NOTAM **Una** posted: > [@](#): > > Altitude: From the surface up to and including 3500 feet MSL It’s trivially easy to see, and photograph in detail, just about anything you want from considerably higher than 3500 feet. The US military regularly photographs and _targets precision weapons_ from a lot higher than that. The flight restrictions are not intended to hide anything. Unless the authorities who decided on that minimum altitude are idiots. ---
**Author:** ![mdcatdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58f4c7/32.png) [@mdcatdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mdcatdad)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/187 "2011-06-26T16:35:17Z")
Why did Cecil omit nuclear fusion? It’s not for cars, of course, but it does not produce any radioactive byproducts and it’s virtually limitless. The only problems are getting to a few dozen million degrees and containment > **[Nuclear fusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion)** > > Nuclear fusion is a reaction in which two or more atomic nuclei, usually deuterium and tritium (hydrogen variants), are combined to form one or more different atomic nuclei and subatomic particles (neutrons or protons). The difference in mass between the reactants and products is manifested as either the release or absorption of energy. This difference in mass arises due to the difference in nuclear binding energy between the atomic nuclei before and after the reaction. Nuclear fusion is the p... ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/188 "2011-06-26T17:23:38Z")
Nah, just put up some devices to collect the energy that comes from the big fusion reactor in the sky. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/189 "2011-06-26T19:08:29Z")
Fort Calhoun nuclear plant has had a berm collapse. external power was cut off, emergency generators are now doing the shutdown reactor and spent fuel cooling. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/190 "2011-06-26T19:32:38Z")
They are? Do you have a source? ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/191 "2011-06-26T19:35:52Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > They are? Do you have a source? [http://beta.news.yahoo.com/flood-berm-collapses-nebraska-nuclear-plant-174718311.html](http://beta.news.yahoo.com/flood-berm-collapses-nebraska-nuclear-plant-174718311.html) Associated Press ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/192 "2011-06-26T19:37:34Z")
I’m sure it’s nothing. Flooded switching rooms and loss of external power, in the middle of a record flood, what could go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/193 "2011-06-26T20:05:27Z")
It’s amusing how every single article about this has the same quote about the berm. “That was an additional layer of protection we put in,” says the power company spokesman. That’s supposed to make people feel better? Dudes, it collapsed. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/194 "2011-06-26T20:26:06Z")
This article claims the flooding is the result of a change of Corp of Engineers policy away from their flood control mission and trying to revert the river to it’s natural state so they didn’t drain down the river during the winter in order to create a spring pulse. In short, this flood was an easy to anticipate consequence of the CoE environmental policies. [http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/06/the\_purposeful\_flooding\_of\_americas\_heartland.html](http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/06/the_purposeful_flooding_of_americas_heartland.html) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/195 "2011-06-26T21:00:17Z")
> [@mdcatdad](#): > > Why did Cecil omit nuclear fusion? It’s not for cars, of course, but it does not produce any radioactive byproducts and it’s virtually limitless. The only problems are getting to a few dozen million degrees and containment > [Nuclear fusion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion) You forgot the smiley face. Right now fusion power is just another kind of unobtainium. It is possible that we might achieve a sustained fusion reaction is a few decades, but we have no idea how build a fusion reactor that isn’t many times more expensive than a fission reactor. The part about radioactive byproducts is also imaginary. You fling neutrons around and you will have radioactive isotopes generated. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/196 "2011-06-27T02:18:19Z")
> [@mdcatdad](#): > > Why did Cecil omit nuclear fusion? It’s not for cars, of course, but it does not produce any radioactive byproducts and it’s virtually limitless. The only problems are getting to a few dozen million degrees and containment > [Nuclear fusion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion) > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You forgot the smiley face. Right now fusion power is just another kind of unobtainium. It is possible that we might achieve a sustained fusion reaction is a few decades, but we have no idea how build a fusion reactor that isn’t many times more expensive than a fission reactor. Fusion is the power source of the future. And always will be. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/197 "2011-06-27T15:59:19Z")
Figured I’d post [this](http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/06/27/fusion/index.html?&hpt=hp_c2) article on fusion, since it’s come up in the thread. I especially like this part: > [@](#): > > A historic fusion breakthrough is “really close,” Wurden says, but developing a successful commercial fusion power plant is further off. > > “So, if somebody tells you they’re going to solve global warming with nuclear fusion three years from now just laugh them out of the street. OK? It’s not going to happen.” -XT ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/198 "2011-06-27T19:51:47Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Figured I’d post [this](http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/06/27/fusion/index.html?&hpt=hp_c2) article on fusion, since it’s come up in the thread. I especially like this part: > -XT I like Eric Drexler’s blog post: [http://metamodern.com/2010/01/20/why-fusion-won%E2%80%99t-provide-power/](http://metamodern.com/2010/01/20/why-fusion-won%E2%80%99t-provide-power/) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/199 "2011-08-01T00:49:05Z")
Here’s an excellent little article [The Truth About Nuclear Power](http://japanfocus.org/-Koide-Hiroaki/3582) about Koide Hiroaki, nuclear engineer, outspoken critic of nuclear energy and now important voice in Japanese media. Among other things, Hiroaki shows what a limited resource uranium is, and then bursts the fast breeder reactor (FBR) myth of virtually limitless energy. It is never going to happen. It can never happen. I love this part: > [@](#): > > The first mention of the FBR was in the 3rd Long-Term Plan in 1968, in which they stated that the FBR would be practical by the first half of the 1980s. But they soon found this goal difficult to achieve, and in the next Long-Term Plan they revised to say that by around 1990 the FBR would succeed. Failing again, the Plan was revised five years later, they rewrote that the FBR would become practical by around the year 2000. But this again failed. In the next revision, they wrote that it would become practical by 2010. This too failed. Next, they stopped using the word “practical,” and changed the objective to “establishing systematized techniques” in the 2020s. But this again turned out to be impossible. Next, they put the goal off to 2030 for establishing systematized techniques. What happened in the next revision? When they revised the Long-Term Plan in the year 2000, they could not even show the projected year at all. And again, five years later, they revised the Long-Term Plan, this time giving an exaggerated name like the “Fundamental Principles on Atomic Energy Policy.” In this revision, the plan stated that anyhow they wanted to build the first fast breeder reactor by 2050. Then, > [@](#): > > If the goal is postponed by ten years every ten years, we can never achieve it. This case is even worse. The goal is postponed by twenty years every ten years, which that tells us that we can never ever fulfill the FBR plan. > > But neither the Atomic Energy Commission of Japan, which spelled out these long-term plans, nor the government, which has supported the Commission, has been held responsible, to date. > > Japan has wasted more than one trillion yen only for the prototype FBR, the Monju. In terms of the present judicial system, one receives a year of imprisonment for a fraud of one hundred million yen. Then, how long a sentence should be meted out for a fraud of one trillion yen? Ten thousand years. I don’t know how many people are responsible for the Monju with the government - the Atomic Energy Commission, the Nuclear Safety Commission, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, then the Ministry of International Trade and Industry, and so forth. But suppose one hundred people responsible, each should be sentenced to one hundred years in prison. This fraud is enormous, but no one has taken any responsibility for it so far. That’s the reality. It seems to me that the nuclear energy business is extremely abnormal. Then he goes on to talk about Fukushima and how not only would TEPCO going bankrupt many times over still not cover the damage, but that Japan itself going bankrupt might not be able to pay the real, long-term costs of Fukushima. And we want to build thousands of these things all over the earth? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752/200 "2011-08-01T01:40:56Z")
No sane person wants any more nuclear reactors anywhere near them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-power/576752.md?page=11)