# Nuclear Threshold of a country. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941 "2008-04-04T16:20:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/21 "2008-04-05T17:31:06Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Who the bad guy might be is irrelevant: true or not the story simply demonstrates the point I was making. [/QUOTE] Your whole argument is based on thin disguises for identifying badguys. What else could “The Chinese don’t think like us because they’re willing and even eager to let a hundred million people die” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/22 "2008-04-05T23:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Your whole argument is based on thin disguises for identifying badguys. [/QUOTE] I’m not going to dignify this with further comment. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/23 "2008-04-05T23:31:10Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] … true or not the story simply demonstrates the point I was making. [/QUOTE] And that point might be? That we can imagine this “other”, “the Chinese”, as not caring about human lives like we do? And that point must be true, because true or not I can tell a story about it … a story that if true illustrates how little an American administration at some point during he last century cared about lives if they were threatening a hugely populated country with nuclear attack. And your position is the dignified one? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/24 "2008-04-05T23:48:29Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Let me say that again. America threatened someone with a nuke. [/QUOTE] It was actually General McAurthur who threatened China with an atomic bomb strike, the reason why President Truman fired him. And it was probably why Mao made the quip that was mentioned , he never took a nuke strike seriously. Declan ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/25 "2008-04-05T23:49:03Z")
**Stranger** , you’re a smart motherfucker. I suspect you are a former or current government employee! I understand why countries feel the “need” to arm themselves with nuclear weapons, since they have been proven by the USA to have incredible enemy-incinerating power. If your hostile neighbor has a catapult and you don’t, you’ll want one too. I just don’t understand how a country could actually use them with impunity, because they cannot. Use them against a similarly-equipped foe, and expect what-for in return. Use them against a nation that doesn’t have them (outside of WWII) and you’re a global pariah. I fear nuclear holocaust. The paranoia of the GWB admin has one thing going for it that I agree with: terrorist organizations CANNOT acquire a nuclear weapon, because they would use it, and there’d be no actual country to retaliate against in kind. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/26 "2008-04-06T00:46:26Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Impressively idiotic. Thanks. [/QUOTE] If this is a comment on Mao Zedong, it is insufficiently clear. If this is a comment on Quartz, you are out of line in Great Debates. In the future, please make sure that your comments are not so cryptic as to invite censure. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/27 "2008-04-06T01:04:36Z")
Mao’s China was a very different place from today’s China. Mao’s version of communism was different from previous versions: Marx had focused on how already-industrialized capitalist nations would become communist. Lenin changed the emphasis to using Marxist-Leninist theory to guide the industrialization of a backward society. And Mao seemingly decided that industrialization wasn’t a high priority at all- that if the masses could just all work together under the inspired leadership of the wise, life would be a utopia. Mao could blithely talk about China surviving a global nuclear holocaust because in his vision China would be a giant amoeba like the Blob, with no vital organs that could be destroyed and enough sheer mass that even losing half or two thirds of it wouldn’t kill it. Needless to say, things have changed since then. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/28 "2008-04-06T13:54:28Z")
As to the Mao/Truman/MacArthur discussion, an interesting [timeline -](http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/China/Nuclear/5630.html) I can’t find the 3 million quote but there is this - > [@](#): > > August 1945 > In a discussion with American reporter Louis Strong, Mao Zedong says, “the atomic bomb is a paper tiger that the U.S. reactionaries use to scare people. It looks terrible, but in fact it isn’t. Of course, the atom bomb is a weapon of mass destruction, but the outcome of war is decided by the people, not by one or two new types of weapons.” > –Mingquan Zhu, “The Evolution of China’s Nuclear Nonproliferation Policy,” Nonproliferation Review, Winter 1997, p. 41. It is unclear how much MacArthur was fired because he wanted to use nuclear bombs against China while Truman did not, so much as Truman seeing him as a threat to his power. Truman apparently had, privately, made the threats. > [@](#): > > 27 January 1952 > In a private hand-written memorandum, President Truman considers the possibility of using nuclear war to end the stalemate in the cease-fire talks in Panmunjom. “This means all-out war. It means that Moscow, St. Petersburg, Mukden, Vladivostok, Peking, Shanghai, Port Arthur, Darien, Odessa, Stalingrad and every manufacturing plant in China and the Soviet Union will be eliminated.” The memo becomes publicly available in 1972. > –“Truman, in 1952 Memos, Considered Nuclear Strike,” New York Times, 3 August 1980, p.22, in Lexis-Nexis, \<[http://web.lexis-nexis.com](http://web.lexis-nexis.com)\>. > > 18 May 1952 > In a private hand-written memorandum, President Truman addresses his concerns over the failure of the Korean truce talks. “Now do you want an end to hostilities in Korea or do you want China and Siberia destroyed? You may have one or the other; whichever you want, these lies of yours at this conference have gone far enough. You either accept our fair and just proposal or you will be completely destroyed.” This memo becomes publicly available in 1972. > –“Truman, in 1952 Memos, Considered Nuclear Strike,” New York Times, 3 August 1980, p. 22, in Lexis-Nexis, \<[http://web.lexis-nexis.com](http://web.lexis-nexis.com)\>. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/29 "2008-04-06T16:21:33Z")
When Nixon was in office the Soviets decided to test him out by landing nuclear tipped missiles in Cuba. He sent a message over Hot Line "Take them out or we will take you out " They were reloaded upon Soviet freighters the following morning and returned to the Soviet Union without any concessions secret or otherwise (Kennedy removed N. Missiles from Turkey as part of a secret deal to defuse The Cuban Missile Crisis) (Cite M.Copeland “The Real Spy World”) So though it may shock you the West does actually rattle its sabres if the situation is serious enough. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/30 "2008-04-06T20:40:55Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Remind me, how many died because of Mao’s reforms? He was certainly not averse to killing his own. [/QUOTE] And that matters how? Mao was just another mass murdering dictator - remarkably similar to dozens of others. If Chinese “aren’t like us”, what about Cambodians? Russians? Germans? Africans? Please make clear which races and nationalities think in ways we can understand and which can’t. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941/31 "2008-04-06T20:43:34Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] If this is a comment on Mao Zedong, it is insufficiently clear. If this is a comment on Quartz, you are out of line in Great Debates. In the future, please make sure that your comments are not so cryptic as to invite censure. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] It was a comment on “The Chinese don’t think the same way the Americans do”, which was perfectly obvious given what I quoted. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-threshold-of-a-country/443941.md?page=1)