# Nuke Mecca? Is it on the table? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086 "2004-06-18T18:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/21 "2004-06-18T20:17:58Z")
> [@kennybath](#): > > Well it might work (OP here). It’d be difficult to pull off. > > Note I didn’t say we would nuke Mecca now or ever. We’d just put it in their minds that we might if they were so unkind as to nuke Chicago or blow up the Lincoln tunnels, etc. Ahh, the mad dog strategy. The US has used it before, why not now? Convince your enemies that you’re a mean, crazy sumbitch who might just kill them if they look at you funny, and everyone treats you with caution. I’ll tell you why not now. 1. Even the threat of it would make devout Muslims around teh world extremely uncooperative. If they’re not driven into Al Qaeda’s camps, they’ll still be totally unwilling to dcooperate with the US. We’ll experience oil embargos; we’ll be kicked off our military basis in the Middle East; we’ll have no more allies in the region at all. 2. That’s right: no more allies. For all the human rights violations the Israeli government has committed against Palestinians, they’re not that crazy. Any politician that went along with this plan in Israel would get his ass booted from office. Even if humanitarian reasons didn’t torpedo such politicians, self-interest would: if Israel were seen as supporting such a murderous policy, efforts against them would treble. 3. And it’s not like other powers in the world would support us. Europe would fall away; we’d lose Blair in a heartbeat. We might even manage to deala deathblow to the United Nations, as other nations became unwilling to put up with our vetoing of condemning resolutions in the Securit Council. 4. The best-case scenario is that Al-Qaeda wouldn’t do large-scale attacks. You can bet that their recruitment efforts for small-scale attacks would skyrocket. If you want to leave the US with no allies in the world, and with no credibility at all on human rights issues, and with a billion-odd folks murderously angry at the country, then go ahead: make this threat. We should also threaten to torture the Pope to death if any Catholics attack us, though: wwhy not go whole hog? Terrible, terrible idea. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/22 "2004-06-18T20:59:00Z")
It would be a complete disaster. Even a mention of such an option will infuriate all Muslims, moderate and fundamental! You will have large scale anti-US riots within the US and elsewhere! The US would be kicked out of all Muslim countries, including even those where Muslims are not in a majority. The US will starve for oil and its economy would go bust. And OBL would be in splits because the US would have done to itself what AQ had set out to do! ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/23 "2004-06-18T21:11:19Z")
Inflammation, a million times, without a doubt. The whole world would become like the Gaza Strip. I can think of few acts that would unite the entire world against the US as quickly as nuking Mecca. The US would lose ALL allies immediately. And it wouldn’t stop the fanatics anyways. Fanaticism does not respond to logic. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/24 "2004-06-18T23:38:58Z")
I have a better solution. Let’s level the entire world. We’ll have no enemies left! Hoo-ray! ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/25 "2004-06-19T00:06:54Z")
I could see such an attack if we are already embroiled in this WW3, but we’d have to be talking massive war here. Not just America and a few other countries against some terrorists, but basically the Western world (which could include other countries not normally thought of all that Western, but could have a strong interest) against the Islamic. And even that is really only good as an idea for part of the backstory for Orson Scott Card novels. AND Mecca (and Medina as well, for good measure) would have to be valid military targets. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/26 "2004-06-19T00:16:23Z")
> [@litost](#): > > I have a better solution. Let’s level the entire world. We’ll have no enemies left! Hoo-ray! Overkill. Why not just widen the Suez Canal? Say, from Gibraltar to Pakistan . . . ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/27 "2004-06-19T00:26:20Z")
I don’t see any way for America and western nations to truly eliminate the threat without relying heavily on Muslims to do it themselves. The only thing approaching a definitive solution would be to convince all Muslim nations to break up these terrorist groups and assist in tracking down those that have gone abroad. Only when these nations refuse to harbor and support these groups, only when they decide that it is in their best interests socially and economically to make the terrorist’s missions untenable and shameful will these incidences begin to cease. Antagonizing Muslims is 180 degrees off course from giving them the encouragement and means to do that. As long as we create situations that divide Muslims from any reason to embrace the western world, we play right into the hands of the tyrants and radical clergy that incite their vast disenfranchised poor and pseudo-intellectuals to rally around a hatred of all things western. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/28 "2004-06-19T00:29:04Z")
> [@kennybath](#): > > Well it might work (OP here). It’d be difficult to pull off. Actually, the operation itself would be relatively easy. Launch a stealth bomber from a base in Kuwait, Bob’s your uncle, back by dinnertime. Of course, it would accomplish exactly nothing. You seem to be under the impression that radical terrorists are like vampires; you can thwart them by waving a cross or a clove of garlic at them, and they’ll slink away. Islam is the most trivial of rationalizations for these guys. They kill people because they like it, becuase it gets them hot, becuare it gives them a hard-on and a thrill, and because they can claim they’re doing it for a larger, more noble purpose. It’s bullshit. They’re no different from any other terrorist, and attacking symbols is useless because symbols mean nothing to them. The best way to deal with them is to kill them, period. Taking a roundabout path is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/29 "2004-06-19T00:30:33Z")
Near as I can tell, there are five major flavors of Muslim, with gradiations in between: 1. “AAAAH! JIHAD! DEATH TO ISRAEL! DEATH TO AMERICA! AND THEN DEATH TO EVERYONE ELSE! AAAAAH! (boom!)” 2. “Well, I don’t hold with this craziness of killing innocent Muslims, just to get some infidels. Still, American and Israeli policy has brought this on themselves. Serves 'em right. Maybe I’ll send Al-Qaida some money.” 3. “This Jihad is not a moral thing. It is not what good Muslims would do. The Americans are assholes, true… but the murder of innocents, even if they are infidels, is to spit in the face of righteousness.” 4. “Um… this is nuts. We have to share a planet with these people, and flying aircraft into their buildings and dismembering their civilian contractors is NOT going to help the situation.” 5. “Muslim? ME? Ahahaha. No, no, got me all wrong. I’m Buddhist. Yup. Buddhist. And I’m not from the Middle East at all. Pakistani? No, no, no (ahahaha), no, got me all wrong. I’m from India, born and raised there, ahahaha.” …and you know what? Attacking Mecca, EVEN IF THEY WERE USING IT AS A STAGING GROUND FOR ATTACKS, would piss off _all five groups._ This frankly strikes me as insane. I sure wouldn’t try it. Then again, considering the idiocy inherent in American foreign policy, it may well hit the table within the next ten years or so. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/30 "2004-06-19T00:32:15Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Islam is the most trivial of rationalizations for these guys. They kill people because they like it, becuase it gets them hot, becuare it gives them a hard-on and a thrill, and because they can claim they’re doing it for a larger, more noble purpose. Their ‘noble purpose’ is a fanatical devotion to Islam, albeit a twisted distorted version of those beliefs. So it’s anything but trivial. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/31 "2004-06-19T00:34:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Heck, let’s nuke Mecca **and** Jerusalem! Just to show we’re being evenhanded! Hell, while we are at it nuke Redmond too! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/32 "2004-06-19T01:05:30Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Their ‘noble purpose’ is a fanatical devotion to Islam, albeit a twisted distorted version of those beliefs. So it’s anything but trivial. Similar thugs have found “noble purpose” in any number of things. The rationalization these clowns apply to their particular violence is irrelevant. If the U.S and Israel were to diappear tomorrow, they’d find something else as a way to justify killing people, because it excites them. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/33 "2004-06-19T01:17:59Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Similar thugs have found “noble purpose” in any number of things. The rationalization these clowns apply to their particular violence is irrelevant. If the U.S and Israel were to diappear tomorrow, they’d find something else as a way to justify killing people, because it excites them. If the US and Israel disappeared, the Koran would remain. Dismissing religiously-inspired hate as ignorant blind bloodlust is, well, ignorant and blind. And quite _who_ you kill isn’t clear in your earlier post. Just the figureheads, and make martyrs of them? All the Saudis who consider Bin Laden to be a cause to support? (that’s something like half of them, by the way) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/34 "2004-06-19T01:22:30Z")
Basically, you remember how you felt when you saw people celebrating September 11, or burning American flags? Then multiply that by infinity, and you’d get some idea of what the sentiment would be. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/35 "2004-06-19T02:09:10Z")
> [@kennybath](#): > > It’s kind of a psychological weakness - the idea of losing Mecca is unthinkable so they do anything to avoid it. But that’s the thing, it isn’t. It’s not like they believe “If Mecca is destroyed, none of us will be able to reach Paradise” or “Allah won’t love us anymore”. The Black Stone of the Kaaba was held for ransom for 20 years back in the 900’s; the Great Mosque in Mecca was occupied by radicals for two weeks back in the 70’s. (IIRC, the siege ended when the Saudis stormed the place.) Threatening Mecca won’t demoralize them and sap their will, it will fill them with righteous anger and make them fight even harder. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/36 "2004-06-19T02:15:54Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > If the US and Israel disappeared, the Koran would remain. Dismissing religiously-inspired hate as ignorant blind bloodlust is, well, ignorant and blind. You miss my point. Historically, the easiest way to turn any man into a murderer was to give him a weapon, justification and license, i.e. “here’s a rifle, and over there are the Muslims/Jews/Croats/Armenians/Whatever who have wronged you and your people and if you kill them, not only will you not be punished, you’ll actually be hailed as a hero.” You can ask how a person could suddenly massacre his neighbors and the answer is simple: because it was permitted. Because he could. In the case of these particular men, the cause no longer matters. They hold life-and-death power and even the acheivement of their claimed goals isn’t going to make them give it up. The only that stops such men is killing them, and not becuase they’ve become superhuman or any such nonsense. They’ve become addicted to their sadism. > [@](#): > > And quite _who_ you kill isn’t clear in your earlier post. Just the figureheads, and make martyrs of them? All the Saudis who consider Bin Laden to be a cause to support? (that’s something like half of them, by the way) Lethal mistakes will occur, but for the most part it’s not hard to tell the difference between those who only talk about killing you, and those who are actively attempting it. Destroying Mecca will kill lots of the former and only encourage the latter. It’s a dumb idea. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/37 "2004-06-19T03:23:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Overkill. Why not just widen the Suez Canal? Say, from Gibraltar to Pakistan . . . Of course, you think I was suggesting we kill ourselves, eh? No, no, everyone except you, me and whoever is with us. This thing might gain some momentum with rational, intelligent individuals joining us like **Blown & Injected** , who wants to wipe out the ME in memory of Paul Johnson. Sounds like a plan. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4981534&postcount=45](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4981534&postcount=45) ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/38 "2004-06-19T05:39:55Z")
> [@Optihut](#): > > Nukes would be bad. But consider just hauling away the sacred black Ka’ba and storing it in a secure location. For every act of terrorism, make a TV broadcast and show the world that you’re chipping away another piece of it as retaliation. That should send the message: Stop blowing up people or the holy stone is history. \Actually, the Ka’aba is the cube-shaped building that houses the Black Stone itself. And the Black Stone is already in several pieces, held together with a silver strap of sorts.\ ---
**Author:** ![whoisreadingthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b782af/32.png) [@whoisreadingthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whoisreadingthis)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/39 "2004-06-19T05:52:02Z")
i we launched a nuke at every other nuke, we’d have no nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086/40 "2004-06-19T06:01:47Z")
> [@whoisreadingthis](#): > > i we launched a nuke at every other nuke, we’d have no nukes. What is that supposed to mean? What relevance does it have to this topic? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuke-mecca-is-it-on-the-table/251086.md?page=3)