# Nukes. How do they work, legally speaking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496 "2016-11-11T14:29:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/1 "2016-11-11T14:29:11Z")
President of the US gets it in his head one day to launch nukes at North Korea. Suppose not one other person, anywhere, agrees with him that this is a good idea. Are there any _legal_ obstacles to him getting the nukes launched anyway? Are there any _procedural_ obstacles? (Like, maybe he legally could do it, but the standard procedure for it includes needed participation from some other official(s) who could take that opportunity to keep it from happening? Let’s set aside the operations of the people ‘on the ground’ who would be engaged in the actual physical work of getting it launched, whatever that involves–I’m talking instead about interactions at the high administrative level.) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/2 "2016-11-11T14:43:19Z")
Yes, he needs the Secretary of Defense to go along with his order. Of course the President can then fire the Sec of Def and go down the list of replacements until he or she finds one that agrees. In your scenario, if there is no one else who agrees to launch nukes then the order will not be followed. > **[National Command Authority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Command_Authority)** > > National Command Authority may refer to: ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/3 "2016-11-11T14:43:21Z")
Random data point. I saw some talking head mention this recently. The president is the only one that can authorize the use of nukes were the kind of words he used. That at least implies that others HAVE to want to use them and he is the one that gives the final go ahead. Which also implies if nobody else wants to, it ain’t happening (at least not easily). I eagerly await a more firm and detailed answer myself. ---
**Author:** ![Ornery\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/4 "2016-11-11T14:50:26Z")
Recent thread about the president’s ability to launch nukes:[Can the President by himself order a preemptive nuclear strike?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=759807&highlight=president+launch+nukes) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/5 "2016-11-11T14:55:16Z")
Well … he’d have to type out the Executive Order himself … so if everyone hid the typewriters then The Donald would have to write the Order out by hand … I suppose he’d have to go down to the crypto vault and encode it himself as well … type it into the comm link … whoever gets the message would probably check with the Pentagon … then there’s the issue of getting the missiles re-targeted … American bureaucracy as it is … we could see weeks or months of foot-dragging … maybe enough time for Congress to intervene … or the next election … ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/6 "2016-11-11T15:04:03Z")
There are potential procedural obstacles - kinda. The Two-man-rule governs how missiles are actually launched from silos or submarines. [Two-man rule - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule) It takes two authorized personnel to turn the key and hit the button (fry silo-based missiles takes another 2-man team to confirm). Theoretically, if one of those people decides that the order cannot possibly be lawful, or has other qualms, that particular missile stays put. ---
**Author:** ![Kamaski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9d8465/32.png) [@Kamaski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamaski)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/7 "2016-11-11T19:01:47Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > There are potential procedural obstacles - kinda. > The Two-man-rule governs how missiles are actually launched from silos or submarines. [Two-person rule - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule) It takes two authorized personnel to turn the key and hit the button (fry silo-based missiles takes another 2-man team to confirm). Theoretically, if one of those people decides that the order cannot possibly be lawful, or has other qualms, that particular missile stays put. But aren’t those people constantly drilled without knowing if it’s real or not so that if the real thing happens they will turn the keys without hesitation. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/8 "2016-11-11T19:15:00Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > **Well … he’d have to type out the Executive Order himself … so if everyone hid the typewriters then The Donald would have to write the Order out by hand** … I suppose he’d have to go down to the crypto vault and encode it himself as well … type it into the comm link … whoever gets the message would probably check with the Pentagon … then there’s the issue of getting the missiles re-targeted … > > American bureaucracy as it is … we could see weeks or months of foot-dragging … maybe enough time for Congress to intervene … or the next election … Why not tweet it? “ISIS very unfair and disloyal. Sad. Nukes launching.” ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/9 "2016-11-11T21:02:47Z")
I dont know the procedure, I’ll leave that for someone else to research.l But in addition to refusing his commandk I believe there is a mechanism to have the president held to be “temporarily” unfit to hold office, and relieved of executive power, like if he is in critical condition following an assassination attempt. Like when Al Haig said “I’m in charge here”, and joined David Atchison as president-for-a-day… This would certainly happen if the president ordered a suicidal armageddon for which there was zero concurrence. That fact that this question is even on anybody’s mind is more frightening than the substance of it actually coming to pass. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/10 "2016-11-11T21:23:02Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > That fact that this question is even on anybody’s mind is more frightening than the substance of it actually coming to pass. Since Trump have already said[he wants to use nukes if there’s another ISIS attack](https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrifying-things-donald-trump-has-publicly-said-about-nuclear-weapons-99f6290bc32a), why not assume he might try? > [@](#): > > ``` > MATTHEWS: Where would we drop — where would we drop a nuclear weapon in the Middle East? > > TRUMP: Let me explain. Let me explain. > > ``` > > \*\* Somebody hits us within ISIS — you wouldn`t fight back with a nuke? > \*\* > … > > ``` > MATTHEWS: OK. The trouble is, when you said that, the whole world heard it. David Cameron in Britain heard it. The Japanese, where we bombed them in 45, heard it. They`re hearing a guy running for president of the United States talking of maybe using nuclear weapons. Nobody wants to hear that about an American president. > > TRUMP: **Then why are we making them? Why do we make them?** > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/11 "2016-11-11T22:03:34Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I dont know the procedure, I’ll leave that for someone else to research.l But in addition to refusing his commandk I believe there is a mechanism to have the president held to be “temporarily” unfit to hold office, and relieved of executive power, like if he is in critical condition following an assassination attempt. Like when Al Haig said “I’m in charge here”, and joined David Atchison as president-for-a-day. [25th Amendment, Section 4:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) > [@Constitution of the United States](#): > > \*\*Section 4. \*\*Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. Alexander Haig was never Acting President. In fact, the 25th was never invoked at all after Reagan’s assassination attempt, and if it had, George H.W. Bush would’ve taken the helm. Al Haig simply didn’t have a clue what he was talking about. 😛 As for what would happen if Trump suddenly ordered nukes, who’s to say that he wouldn’t have picked Cabinet members who are just as hawkish and bloodthirsty as him? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/12 "2016-11-11T22:14:58Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > As for what would happen if Trump suddenly ordered nukes, who’s to say that he wouldn’t have picked Cabinet members who are just as hawkish and bloodthirsty as him? Because the men and women with the actual launch keys can independently think and reason, and don’t have to go along with the order if they consider it unlawful. Or, technically speaking, if they just don’t want to. Or are commie symps. Or lazy. My cite the the documentary _Crimson Tide_. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/13 "2016-11-12T05:10:45Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > But aren’t those people constantly drilled without knowing if it’s real or not so that if the real thing happens they will turn the keys without hesitation. No. This is from conversations with former LCC personnel, but from them, while they don’t know at the outset of the Emergency Action Message whether the EAM is for a valid Launch Order, by the time they decode the EAM they know. To the best of my knowledge, and I’ve never been in a LCC or a missile submarine or SAC base or any other special material program, there has never been a “[Wargames](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReJ3RltihME)”-like scenario where US military personnel have been under the impression they’ve been given a valid launch order and are launching/releasing/flying past the FailSafe point with nuclear weapons. In fact, the LCC commander I’ve talked with indicated that heads would literally roll if he ever was toyed with in such a manner. He may have been lying; I obviously couldn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/14 "2016-11-12T05:15:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Since Trump have already said[he wants to use nukes if there’s another ISIS attack](https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrifying-things-donald-trump-has-publicly-said-about-nuclear-weapons-99f6290bc32a), why not assume he might try? Raqqa, as the largest extant city under ISIS control, now that Mosul is being fought over, seems like an obvious target for destruction. That said, the US hardly needs to use a nuclear weapon to destroy Raqqa if they choose. I’m going to go with the candidate who didn’t advocate for a no-fly zone over Syria, nor had been sabre-rattling with the Russians, as the candidate less likely to accidentally involve the United States in a potential nuclear conflict. He’s thin-skinned, he’s definitely bitchy; but you all think he’s actually likely to use nuclear weapons on some country? Jeez, and I thought the worse he’d do is be rude on Twitter… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/15 "2016-11-12T05:52:31Z")
[There is one method](http://www.scottcutler.net/images/drtrumplove.png) I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/16 "2016-11-12T07:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > TRUMP: Then why are we making them? Why do we make them? Curiously this is, in many people’s minds, the most important question. From a naive business point of view, spending many many billions on the nuke arsenal, when it is not clear that they are actually useful in any tangible manner is odd. Of course there is a rationale, but it isn’t the obvious one. One could recast the conversation as Trump playing devil’s advocate, and asking why he should not immediately cancel all funding for the nukes, and the delivery systems. Nobody really imagines this is the point of the conversation, but by the same token, it isn’t clear what the point really was. The North Koreans have made an art form of making their opponents worry that they are just crazy enough to actually use a nuke. This is the problem with the MAD doctrine. It only works if the other guy believes you actually are just insane enough. ETA, one thing that does seem missing from much discussion of MAD. It isn’t really about wiping out your enemy. The nukes are not (so far as we know) aimed at major population centres. They are aimed at major military targets. What is assured is not so much total annihilation, but that your country will be left with no functional defence. In principle ripe for picking off by any neighbour armed with pointed sticks. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/17 "2016-11-12T14:31:35Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I’m going to go with the candidate who didn’t advocate for a no-fly zone over Syria, . Hillary knows a lot about no-fly zones. She was living in the White House with the commander in chief who authorized bombing missions about every other day during his entire administration, killing a half a million Iraqi children,strictly on his own with no UN sanction in place. There is no record of the influential Mrs. Clinton disagreeing with Madeline Albright’s “worth the price” sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/18 "2016-11-12T15:52:31Z")
I think that there’s been so much discussion of Trump and Clinton already that this is probably not salvageable for GQ without nuclear moderation. 😉 Off to Great Debates. Bombs away! Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/19 "2016-11-12T16:03:31Z")
I always felt that Al Haig got a bum rap on that incident. It was pretty clear, to me at least, that he was talking about operational command at the White House itself, rather than an assumption of full presidential powers. (And I say that as a Democrat.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496/20 "2016-11-12T16:47:05Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > [There is one method](http://www.scottcutler.net/images/drtrumplove.png) I can think of. Hey Dr Strangelove didn’t you make a movie about this? I wouldn’t worry about the POTUS doing this as muchas I would North Korea or Iran 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nukes-how-do-they-work-legally-speaking/771496.md?page=2)