# Numenorean Lord vs Elf Lord in wrestling match - Who wins? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147 "2006-09-02T01:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/21 "2006-09-02T17:27:47Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Book-Legolas, probably not. Movie-Legolas, definitely; his reflexes and coordination were so superior to theirs that, unless Boromir/Aragorn/Gimli got in a lucky shot in the first 0.5 seconds, they’d be toast. [/QUOTE] I was talking book of course, changes made for the movie, I ignore of course. **Inigo Montoya** : Oh, those bears. Why didn’t you mention the laser beams? 😉 Jim ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/22 "2006-09-02T20:54:40Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] … In his prime, Elrond could have taken him no sweat, but Elrond’s game has been fading since Gil-Galad bought it. [/QUOTE] “Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, _and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength._” ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/23 "2006-09-02T20:55:45Z")
Sorry, meant to add: Elrond lays the smack down on his great-great-great etc. grandnephew and son in law. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/24 "2006-09-02T21:09:51Z")
[QUOTE=Laughing Lagomorph] “Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, _and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength._” [/QUOTE] Then what the hell was he doing while Gil-Galad and Elendil were perishing in the act of bringing down Sauron and Isildur was sawing off Sauron’s finger? Hmmmm? Waving that silly banner of Gil-Galad’s, that’s what! Didn’t even take out a ringwraith, much less a valaraukar, in the whole damn last battle! And what the heck was Elrond doing in the War of Wrath, anyway? Sounds like Elros and his Edain buddies smote some baddies alongside the Vanyar and Noldor under Finarfin, but where was Elrond? ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/25 "2006-09-02T21:24:13Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] […] much less a valaraukar […] [/QUOTE] Isn’t _valaraukar_ plural? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/26 "2006-09-02T21:31:00Z")
You’d have to define the age of the elf. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/27 "2006-09-02T21:41:19Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Then what the hell was he doing while Gil-Galad and Elendil were perishing in the act of bringing down Sauron and Isildur was sawing off Sauron’s finger? Hmmmm? Waving that silly banner of Gil-Galad’s, that’s what! Didn’t even take out a ringwraith, much less a valaraukar, in the whole damn last battle! And what the heck was Elrond doing in the War of Wrath, anyway? Sounds like Elros and his Edain buddies smote some baddies alongside the Vanyar and Noldor under Finarfin, but where was Elrond? [/QUOTE] Oh, I get it. You aren’t talking about any decline in physical ability but rather his lack of _cojones._ Well, I can’t argue with that. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/28 "2006-09-02T21:52:24Z")
Turin. If he’s prepared. 😛 **Qadgop** is right on one thing: With a Calaquendi elf, it would not be merely a feat of strength (unless he chose to restrict himself to it). He might, for example, use _karme_ and _olos_ to cast a seeming to mislead the mortal. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/29 "2006-09-02T22:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Turin. If he’s prepared. 😛 [/QUOTE] A Turin Turambar turun ambartanen! The original Dark Knight, complete with his dragonhelm. Well, he preceded Batman, at any rate. Gotta watch out for any descendant of Luthien, y’know. Man or Elf. At need, they can _sing_. A la “The Music of the Ainur”. That’d be a cool power. Restructure your local reality with the same power used to create Arda. ---
**Author:** ![Arien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arien)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/30 "2006-09-03T00:38:33Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] A laita elyë, laita elyë! [/QUOTE] Say what? Languages are the weak spot in my Middle Earth lore. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Qadgop is right on one thing: With a Calaquendi elf, it would not be merely a feat of strength (unless he chose to restrict himself to it). He might, for example, use karme and olos to cast a seeming to mislead the mortal. The OP says that no magic is allowed, but good luck explaining that. No doubt the elf would pretend to not understand what mortals mean by “magic” and say he was just using his native art. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/31 "2006-09-03T01:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=Arien] Say what? Languages are the weak spot in my Middle Earth lore. The OP says that no magic is allowed, but good luck explaining that. No doubt the elf would pretend to not understand what mortals mean by “magic” and say he was just using his native art. Whatever. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it would be pretense; it would be a translation problem and quite possibly an insurmountable viewpoint problem. When Legolas used his superior vision to see over distances impossible for humans (because he could see as if the Earth were flat), he didn’t call it magic, nor think of it that way; likewise when he ran over snowdrifts that could not, by human standards. support his weight. He was doing things that came utterly natural to him because his perception of the world differed. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/32 "2006-09-03T15:05:11Z")
[QUOTE=Arien] Say what? Languages are the weak spot in my Middle Earth lore. [/quote] Praise you! ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/33 "2006-09-03T15:51:02Z")
Okay, let’s for the uber-match: Manwe vs. Melkor, and all Incredible Ainur Powers are confined to affecting each other and nobody / nothing else. (That means, no blowing up the entire arena, no corrupting the ring-side judges, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/34 "2006-09-03T16:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=Scuba\_Ben] Okay, let’s for the uber-match: Manwe vs. Melkor, and all Incredible Ainur Powers are confined to affecting each other and nobody / nothing else. (That means, no blowing up the entire arena, no corrupting the ring-side judges, etc.) [/QUOTE] Post-creation of Arda, Manwë, no question. Melkor spent all his powers over the ages, investing them into Arda in order to try an control it. And heck, the last time he was in the ring, Melkor barely beat Fingolfin! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/35 "2006-09-03T16:57:27Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Post-creation of Arda, Manwë, no question. Melkor spent all his powers over the ages, investing them into Arda in order to try an control it. And heck, the last time he was in the ring, Melkor barely beat Fingolfin! [/QUOTE] 100% correct as usual. BTW, no man could ever have taken Fingolfin in a wrestling match. I doubt even Beorn would have had a chance against him and he was part bear. I would take Beorn over many Elven Lords of the later ages however. I do not see Legolas, Thranduil, Celeborn or Elrond standing long against him. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/36 "2006-09-03T17:43:11Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Book-Legolas, probably not. Movie-Legolas, definitely; his reflexes and coordination were so superior to theirs that, unless Boromir/Aragorn/Gimli got in a lucky shot in the first 0.5 seconds, they’d be toast. [/QUOTE] Is it really useful to cite the movies when considering comparisons of this nature? According to the film trilogy, an elf can easily beat a dwarf in a drinking contest, and that’s got to be all kinds of wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/37 "2006-09-03T18:17:16Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] Is it really useful to cite the movies when considering comparisons of this nature? According to the film trilogy, an elf can easily beat a dwarf in a drinking contest, and that’s got to be all kinds of wrong. [/QUOTE] Where is that scene? I have the DVDs on my shelf ready to watch, I’ll have to look for that. I can’t imagine an elf out-drinking a dwarf, except maybe if they’re drinking elfin mead or similar Firstborn concoctions. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/38 "2006-09-03T20:19:28Z")
[QUOTE=Scuba\_Ben] Where is that scene? I have the DVDs on my shelf ready to watch, I’ll have to look for that. I can’t imagine an elf out-drinking a dwarf, except maybe if they’re drinking elfin mead or similar Firstborn concoctions. [/QUOTE] It is in the _extended_ edition DVD of ROTK. Legolas drank Gimli under the table in the halls of Edoras. I thought it was a stupid scene. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/39 "2006-09-03T20:32:23Z")
[QUOTE=Scuba\_Ben] Where is that scene? I have the DVDs on my shelf ready to watch, I’ll have to look for that. I can’t imagine an elf out-drinking a dwarf, except maybe if they’re drinking elfin mead or similar Firstborn concoctions. [/QUOTE] The drinking game can be found in Chapter 5 of the **Return of the King** Extended Edition, “Return to Edoras.” As I recall, it did not make the theatrical cut. Perhaps Peter Jackson realized at the last moment how woefully improbable the scene was compared to some of the other events depicted, like the zombie/elephant battle. The drinking game took place in Edoras, so presumably they were drinking mead, I suppose. The scene also implies that Dwarves have TARDIS-like bladder capacity, if the pile of empty mugs in front of Gimli is any indication. To be fair, the notion of a sloshing, urine-bloated Elf is equally disturbing. But no doubt Elven kidneys are so supernaturally efficient that the end result is as clear and effervescent as the purest spring water, with any impurities crystallized down into tiny gemstones that take 1500 years to pass through the ureter. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t appreciate the films as the lovingly crafted works of art they plainly are; I just feel that it’s potentially misleading to look to them for answers to serious questions like who would win when a man wrestles an elf. Of course the real question is, “Would a Numenorean or an Elf-Lord be more likely to wrestle while wearing a mask, Mexican-style?” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147/40 "2006-09-03T21:28:45Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Post-creation of Arda, Manwë, no question. Melkor spent all his powers over the ages, investing them into Arda in order to try an control it. And heck, the last time he was in the ring, Melkor barely beat Fingolfin! [/QUOTE] Ha! It was Sauron\*, not Melkor, who was in the Ring! 😛 \*OK, “Annatar” 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numenorean-lord-vs-elf-lord-in-wrestling-match-who-wins/371147.md?page=3)