# Numerals used in Original Old Testament/New Testament and Quran ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 22, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357 "2018-07-22T00:43:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/1 "2018-07-22T00:43:36Z")
The Hindu / Arabic Numerals (decimal system) originated around 1500-500 BC. Cite : [History of the Hindu–Arabic numeral system - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system) The Roman Numerals originated in Ancient Rome (753 BC–476 AD). Cite : [Roman numerals - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals) For the most ancient preserved subject holy books, which of the above two numeral systems are used to mark chapters, pages, etc ? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/2 "2018-07-22T00:53:46Z")
Chapters and verses weren’t numbered in the older texts. While early biblical texts were divided into sections, those sections weren’t numbered. The numbering of chapters and verses didn’t come along until the late Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/3 "2018-07-22T01:00:45Z")
I was under the impression the chapters were on individual scrolls. Wouldn’t the people of the Mideast use hebrew numbers? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/4 "2018-07-22T01:55:06Z")
Here are some old fragments of [Genesis](https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/image/B-295662) and of [Deuteronomy](https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/image/B-314643). Also [Psalms](https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/image/B-314640). I don’t see any external numerals anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/5 "2018-07-22T01:58:46Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Chapters and verses weren’t numbered in the older texts. While early biblical texts were divided into sections, those sections weren’t numbered. The numbering of chapters and verses didn’t come along until the late Middle Ages. Right. For more details, [Wikipedia has an article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible). ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/6 "2018-07-22T03:35:58Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Here are some old fragments of [Genesis](https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/image/B-295662) and of [Deuteronomy](https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/image/B-314643). Also [Psalms](https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/image/B-314640). I don’t see any external numerals anywhere. At least for the last two links, there appears to be chapter titles or page numbers. I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. Can you ? ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/7 "2018-07-22T03:37:09Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Right. For more details, [Wikipedia has an article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible). Agreed. The Wikipedia article has no mention of page numbers. Were there any ? How do we know the Bible has the right sequence ? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/8 "2018-07-22T03:43:23Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > At least for the last two links, there appears to be chapter titles or page numbers. I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. Can you ? I don’t see them. Could you please describe where they appear? All I see is text formatted into paragraphs. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/9 "2018-07-22T04:28:26Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I don’t see them. Could you please describe where they appear? All I see is text formatted into paragraphs. I uploaded screenshots to here [copy 1 - Album on Imgur](https://imgur.com/a/6JRKSqo) and highlighted what I believe are chapter / headings / page numbers / etc. occurring on top of the text. The first image is from your Deuteronmy link while the last two are from the Psalm link. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/10 "2018-07-22T04:35:16Z")
To answer the OP’s original question, [Hebrew numerals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_numerals) were used. This system is based on the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, not on a different notation, that’s why it may not be obvious when you glance at a text. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/11 "2018-07-22T05:10:20Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Agreed. The Wikipedia article has no mention of page numbers. Were there any ? How do we know the Bible has the right sequence ? Define “right”. AIUI the Bible is a collection of different texts by largely unknown authors written at different times, that has been through different editions in different languages at different times over millennia to suit the beliefs and wishes of different authorities. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/12 "2018-07-22T05:29:18Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I uploaded screenshots to here [copy 1 - Album on Imgur](https://imgur.com/a/6JRKSqo) > and highlighted what I believe are chapter / headings / page numbers / etc. occurring on top of the text. > > The first image is from your Deuteronmy link while the last two are from the Psalm link. I see three images labelled “copy 1”. The first one reads את הדברים האלה דבר יהוה אל כל קהלכם בהר מתוך האש … [These are the things that Yahweh said to your whole congregation on the mountain from within the fire…] i.e. Deuteronomy 5:22, and you have circled the words “אל כל קהלכם”. They don’t seem to stand out from the rest of the line, though? The second circled image is the last line of Psalm 144: אשרי העם שככה לו אשרי העם אשר יהוה אלוהיו [Happy is the people that is such, happy is the people whose god is Yahweh.] The interesting feature here is that everything is written in the Aramaic script, as Hebrew is today (and evidently already was 2000 years ago), except the word “YHWH” is written in the older Hebrew script, which is why it looks different, but it’s just a different font, not a heading or any other interruption to the text. The last image is the final two words (שכרכם בעתו) of Psalm number ? (Ben Sira 51), then a space, then the beginning of Apostrophe to Zion (אזכירך לברכה ציון בכול מודי…), so, again, a horizontal space to indicate a section break but no numbering, heading, or other apparatus. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/13 "2018-07-22T05:37:39Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > To answer the OP’s original question, [Hebrew numerals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_numerals) were used. > > This system is based on the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, not on a different notation, that’s why it may not be obvious when you glance at a text. I’m sure whoever penned the scrolls knew all about Greek, Roman, and Hebrew numerals, but can you provide an example where they show up? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/14 "2018-07-22T05:42:04Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Define “right”. AIUI the Bible is a collection of different texts by largely unknown authors written at different times, that has been through different editions in different languages at different times over millennia to suit the beliefs and wishes of different authorities. The Psalms scroll fragment pictured above is a good example, since it goes Psalm 139, Psalm 137, Psalm 138, then a couple of psalms not in the traditional Hebrew bible, then 93, 141, 133, 144, and yet another bonus psalm. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/15 "2018-07-22T06:45:59Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The Hindu / Arabic Numerals (decimal system) originated around 1500-500 BC. Cite : [History of the Hindu–Arabic numeral system - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system) Nitpick: This claim is somewhat misleading. While it’s true that some early civilizations, including Egypt’s Early Dynastic Period, used a “decimal system,” the early Vedic system used words rather than symbols and wasn’t a “place-value” system. There were earlier digit symbols, but [this source traces the Hindu digits back no further than to the Brahmi numerals circa 250 BC](http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/Indian_numerals.html). And these were still not used in a _place-value system_, nor was there a zero symbol. The Indian decimal place-value system with ten digits that resembles our own is clearly attested only from the 7th century AD. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/16 "2018-07-22T07:55:37Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I’m sure whoever penned the scrolls knew all about Greek, Roman, and Hebrew numerals, but can you provide an example where they show up? I didn’t say there were numbers in those particular texts. Early copies of the Bible were divided up by unnumbered ‘portions’ or [parashah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashah) rather than numbered chapters. [Here’s](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165) an example of verse numbering in the modern Hebrew text of the Bible. And a [list](https://sites.google.com/site/toolsforstudyingthehebrewbible/hebrew-english-glossary) of Hebrew chapter and verse numbers and their English equivalents. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/numerals-used-in-original-old-testament-new-testament-and-quran/818357/17 "2018-07-22T12:08:11Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I see three images labelled “copy 1”. > > The first one reads > > את הדברים האלה דבר יהוה אל כל קהלכם בהר מתוך האש > … > > [These are the things that Yahweh said to your whole congregation on the mountain from within the fire…] i.e. Deuteronomy 5:22, and you have circled the words “אל כל קהלכם”. They don’t seem to stand out from the rest of the line, though? > > The second circled image is the last line of Psalm 144: אשרי העם שככה לו אשרי העם אשר יהוה אלוהיו [Happy is the people that is such, happy is the people whose god is Yahweh.] The interesting feature here is that everything is written in the Aramaic script, as Hebrew is today (and evidently already was 2000 years ago), except the word “YHWH” is written in the older Hebrew script, which is why it looks different, but it’s just a different font, not a heading or any other interruption to the text. > > The last image is the final two words (שכרכם בעתו) of Psalm number ? (Ben Sira 51), then a space, then the beginning of Apostrophe to Zion (אזכירך לברכה ציון בכול מודי…), so, again, a horizontal space to indicate a section break but no numbering, heading, or other apparatus. Thank you DPRK. For the first one, I think I saw faint characters in the top part of the circle but I could be wrong. Nevertheless thank you.