# Nut With Gun at Town Hall **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377 "2009-08-14T03:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/261 "2009-08-18T15:26:16Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Oh dear fucking lord. **Mods** , can we please get a sticky placed in all forums “An assault rifle is a very specific thing” so that **Argent Towers** can save some electrons. Granted, his post-per-day count will fall through the floor, but at least we won’t have every.fucking.thread. that \*mentions \*assault rifles suffer from the reflexive diatribe. I’m too lazy to search, but I’m sure there have been _multiple_ Cafe threads that got derailed because what someone called a salt shaker wasn’t so because the holes in the top weren’t standard gauge. > **Argent** , every other post of yours is worth reading closely. The first fifty whatis/isn’t an assault rifle posts (er, that’s _per thread_, not across the whole board) were worth reading, and were finely detailed with accurate information on the semantics of the issue. But dear lord. As soon as someone posted “assault rifle” in the thread, thousands of Doper eyes started rolling with the surety that any second, here comes ol’ **Argent** with his screed. Get the fuck over it. It’s way over the top, repetitive, and clothes you as a gun nut. There are plenty of people on the board who are doing much more to bolster the Second Amendment and fight ignorance _without_ turning themselves into a one-trick pony. > > Again, every other post of yours is worth reading, but this shit is fucking old. Go post a “Ask the guy who knows what an assault rifle is” thread (and find out how many people say ‘no shit’ with a link to one of your posts) and simply link there whenever someone mentions it. When was the last time I even posted anything about gun politics at all, before this thread? I object to your assertion that I mention this issue in a repetitive way. When it comes up, I address it. Why? \*\*Because it’s a commonly-made mistake, borne of ignorance, that is easy to correct with simple facts. \*\* Again this board’s motto is “fighting ignorance,” so what can I say - when I find ignorance, I fight it. I’m sorry it bothers you so much, but I’m not going to stop doing something just because _you_ don’t like it. Maybe you should just put me on your ignore list. I won’t take it personally. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of people on the board who are doing much more to bolster the Second Amendment and fight ignorance without turning themselves into a one-trick pony. Are there? Are there other members of this board who are members of the NRA, who regularly post essays on Facebook advocating gun rights which are seen by hundreds of people and which create discussions, who write to their local newspaper frequently about gun-related topics of all kinds (including practical issues like safety), and who make a personal mission of correcting factual errors to try to help people understand more about guns and fear them less? Both on this board, and in person? Who have civil, polite and interesting discussions with people from a very wide range of political beliefs, including radical leftists, which often result in them being much more open-minded about guns due to my arguments? Because I do every single one of those things. I’m not a one trick pony. I have a cause and I believe in fighting for it. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/262 "2009-08-18T15:37:44Z")
Incidentally, I realize that most of you think “wtf do they even care about this issue so much?” - there are a few things to it. And I’m not looking to start seperate debates, but rather to quickly attempt to explain: First, the general belief that the second amendment is about having an armed citizenry that can fight as an unorganized military force if necesary. In recent times, we’ve been subjected to bullshit like “we won’t come after your duck guns, hell, I’m a hunter myself!” from politicians, the idea imprinted in various laws that the legitimate purpose for legal guns stems from “sporting purposes”, and a general attempt to divide and conquer the gun advocacy world by marginalizing people who believe that guns for military purposes and self defense are more important than some asshole’s hunting guns. Second, going along with the first, a lot of us think it’s absolutely silly and complete bullshit that despite a completely safe record of legal gun ownership of any “machine gun” by US citizens, they were banned anyway. But that wasn’t enough - now we have to go after guns that don’t have that function, but they look like they could - and it’s easy to confuse the public about the issue. Third, a lot of us appreciate military weapons for their various qualities - they typically are very rugged and functional, often they have a very interesting place in history, and they’re often aesthetically interesting. I have a Mauser 98k rifle that was made in Yugoslavia by the rebels in WW2 after they captured the equipment. It’s a rugged, reliable, beautiful rifle with an interesting history. Few people would think anything bad about me collecting it. But if I wanted to collect a military weapon from a few decades after that, for the same reasons - oh no, now I have evil intent. So not only am I against deliberate spreading of ignorance and lies by the media in general, but I think it damages the public perception about what the second amendment is about and what useful roles guns can provide in our society, but it also is a deliberate attack on a hobby of mine. To make an analogy, imagine that there was an extended media campaign to demonify sports cars. Eventually, all cars were forced to put a limiter in them keeping them from exceeding 70 miles per hour. Oh, but that wasn’t enough - the media and politicians were still on their crusade against fast cars. Even though all cars are limited to 70 miles per hour, they still want to ban cars that look like cars that could go faster, but can no longer function that way. Under this scenario, gearheads might be a bit miffed and get annoyed every time the media lied about the issue. And that only covers the hobby part - the issue of functional role of guns in society is by far of much greater importance. So when we encounter this lie, we’re pretty passionate about fighting the ignorance it spreads. The fact that this board, dedicated to the eradication of ignorance, has plenty of people willing to defend it when they know it’s a lie, is unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/263 "2009-08-18T15:41:34Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > See, the left on this board will claim that it’s always the republicans with the lies to rile up the base - death panels, socialists - whatever Thanks for the tip! This should be handy for identifying leftists. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/264 "2009-08-18T15:42:12Z")
I appreciate the explanation about assault rifles and agree that the media ought to get it right, but I’m with **Jack Batty** in this particular point - whether you give the full technical specs or call it a shooty-bang-bang-stick, I get nervous about the fact that someone brought one to what is effectively an emotionally charged and potentially confrontational situation. Guns don’t kill people but dipshits with guns can kill a lot of people, and political protests tended to have a high dipshit quotient. He had a right to carry a gun; I have a right to be nervous. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/265 "2009-08-18T15:43:42Z")
Is it less of a big deal if he brought a handgun or shotgun? I just don’t see the point in emphasizing that except to take a political shot about OOOOH SCARY ASSAULT RIFLES. Edit: To carry with my fast car analogy above, what if every time someone in a sports car was driving drunk (not particularly fast) the media played up the fact that it was a HIGH SPEED SPORTS CAR (OMG EVIL!) that killed the poor kids in the other car, even if it was irrelevant to the issue at hand, but there was a concerted effort by the media to demonify them? Only - on top of that - the car the guy was driving wasn’t even a sports car, the media deliberately misidentified it just to take an extra shot at it. Sports car enthusiasts would be rightly irritated. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/266 "2009-08-18T15:45:18Z")
[4409 – Brother carries AR-15 Rifle at Obamabot Rally](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63GiXzpfGhA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.talkingpointsmemo.com%2Flivewire%2F2009%2F08%2Fwatch-man-carries-an-assault-rifle-outside-obama-event.php%3Fref%3Dfpblg&feature=player_embedded) 9/11 truth? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/267 "2009-08-18T15:46:14Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > When was the last time I even posted anything about gun politics at all, before this thread? Who said anything about politics? Search Google with [site:straightdope.com “argent towers” “assault rifle”] Not every thread counts, but it’s there. > [@](#): > > I object to your assertion that I mention this issue in a repetitive way. When it comes up, I address it. Um… yeah. _Whenever it comes up you mention it._ Sometimes it comes up barely tangentially (the Carter Editorial thread) and you mention it. Even here it’s a semantic sidetrack: Quoting \*\* Czarcasm\*\*“Let me get this straight—angry people are carrying weapons to town halls, and the main reason some of you are upset is because newspapers aren’t being entirely accurate about what types of weapons they are?” > [@](#): > > Why? \*\*Because it’s a commonly-made mistake, borne of ignorance, that is easy to correct with simple facts. Hence my request that you get your very own special sticky. > [@](#): > > Are there? Are there other members of this board who are members of the NRA, who regularly post essays on Facebook advocating gun rights which are seen by hundreds of people and which create discussions, who write to their local newspaper frequently about gun-related topics of all kinds (including practical issues like safety), and who make a personal mission of correcting factual errors to try to help people understand more about guns and fear them less? Both on this board, and in person? Who have civil, polite and interesting discussions with people from a very wide range of political beliefs, including radical leftists, which often result in them being much more open-minded about guns due to my arguments? Because I do every single one of those things. Yes. You’ve done a great job, but are sliding (have slid) so far into one-trick pony land on this issue. Bully for you that you obsess over this issue to the point of maintaining such a high focus. Sorry if I came across as saying that others are writing more letters to Santa, gave the NRA more money, or have bigger and better bumper stickers. No, I simply meant that there are plenty of people here who can approach the issue and present arguments without being overbearing. > [@](#): > > I’m not a one trick pony. I have a cause and I believe in fighting for it. You are on this one issue. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/268 "2009-08-18T15:57:36Z")
Well, the misnomer of “assault weapon” or “assault rifle” is probably _the most common_ gun-related error that ever comes up, so naturally this is going to be the one that I address most. And, again, I’m sorry it bothers you so much, but I’m not going to stop doing it. Am I going to bring it up in a thread that has nothing to do with guns at all? No. Am I even going to bring it up in a thread about guns, but one in which nobody makes the “assault rifle” mistake? No. I’m not going to bring it up out of the blue. But if I see an instance of this stupid mistake in a thread, I will correct it, and that is all there is to it. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/269 "2009-08-18T16:01:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > All for fighting ignorance and I have seen you and others take up the cause of inappropriate use of “assault rifle” many times. > > All well and good to point it out but it starts sounding more like smoke and mirrors to me as it becomes the main topic being discussed here. The issue at hand (in this thread) is people bringing guns to emotionally charged rallies where the President is present (or just bringing them to these rallies at all even if the President is not there). > > Hauling off on whether it is an “assault” weapon or not misses the main point. Bringing a gun to these rallies in the point. Does it really matter much what kind of gun it is? To be honest no. Let me ask you one question. Why does it matter if it’s a completely legal thing to do? Why does the promotion of the town hall meeting turn into “OMG A NUT BROUGHT A GUN (which he is legally licensed to carry)” to the anything. Why does it matter to you? It is sensationalism at it’s best and it worked, on YOU and a host of others here in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![TheBaptiste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f6c823/32.png) [@TheBaptiste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBaptiste)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/270 "2009-08-18T16:07:17Z")
The tactical reload in the back pocket of his slacks was awesome. I love this guy, Big ones, HUGE!! Of course I live behind emeny lines here in NJ, so this is just a dream to me. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/271 "2009-08-18T16:14:30Z")
I should just say for the record I think the guy at the townhall meeting with the gun is an idiot and I do not support the idea of flashing around guns just to shock and jar people, legal as it may be. I am NOT constantly getting into peoples’ faces about guns - in fact, I do not wear my gun advocacy on my sleeve at all, except for a very small NRA sticker on the back of my car. I do write letters to the newspaper, but I never harass people in person about guns looking to start a debate; in fact, I tend to never initiate gun debates or even gun discussions at all. I have a hell of a lot of different interests and hobbies in life and guns are just one of them (and a lower-priority one, at that, compared to some other things like history and literature.) However, if people are discussing guns, and I hear ignorant things being said, I will throw my hat into the ring, every time. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/272 "2009-08-18T16:15:19Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > To be honest no. Let me ask you one question. Why does it matter if it’s a completely legal thing to do? Why does the promotion of the town hall meeting turn into “OMG A NUT BROUGHT A GUN (which he is legally licensed to carry)” to the anything. > > Why does it matter to you? It is sensationalism at it’s best and it worked, on YOU and a host of others here in this thread. Because it is an implicit threat. These town hall meetings, of late, are emotionally charged places. If you and I are on opposite sides of an issue and angrily yelling at each other do you think it will not occur to me the person I am arguing against has a gun? Is the guy with the gun afraid for his life there and feels a need for self-defense? Never mind the dozens of police and perhaps Secret Service agents roaming around? What if some other loon, who cannot get a gun for previous violent behavior, figures he’ll just knock someone down and take their gun and start shooting? What happens if one person starts shooting and mayhem ensues? People running to and fro, police drawing their weapons, Secret Service drawing their weapons, other citizens drawing their weapons all in a crowd of screaming people. Fun times! :rolleyes: Yes it is legal but that does not make it a smart thing to do. Owning matches and gasoline is legal. Playing with matches around the gasoline is not smart. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/273 "2009-08-18T16:17:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I was under the impression that the Black Talons were teflon coated (so that the exposed end of the hollow points didn’t damage the barrel) and so we’re talking about teh same thing. Black Talons aren’t the ‘cop killer’ bullets with teflon that were designed to penetrate bulletproof vests. Those were KTW’s brass bullets. Black Talons have a weird different coating that’s black. It served the same purpose, to preserve the rifling in the gun, but it’s a different substance. They were designed to ‘blow off limbs’, but, since they’re hollowpoints, they’re completely useless at penetrating armor. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/274 "2009-08-18T16:17:52Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > To be honest no. Let me ask you one question. Why does it matter if it’s a completely legal thing to do? Angry people + firearms = bleeding angry people ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/275 "2009-08-18T16:19:59Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Black Talons aren’t the ‘cop killer’ bullets with teflon that were designed to penetrate bulletproof vests. Those were KTW’s brass bullets. Black Talons have a weird different coating that’s black. It served the same purpose, to preserve the rifling in the gun, but it’s a different substance. They were designed to ‘blow off limbs’, but, since they’re hollowpoints, they’re completely useless at penetrating armor. Thanks for the correction, I’ll try to remember that in the future. My point was still true, though, that some scary-sounding bullets that were actually the least capable of penetrating armor started a cop killer bullets hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/276 "2009-08-18T16:54:09Z")
From _Talking Points Memo_ (Warning! Middlin’ Lefty Site, Tighty Righty are alerted to observe anti-cootie protocols!) > [@](#): > > …And now the health-reform opponent carrying an AR-15 Assault Rifle (or perhaps the group he’s affiliated with) has produced a Youtube video which leaves little question where they stand – “We will forcefully resist people imposing their will on us through the strength of the majority with a vote.”… (The source has the video addy, not reproduced here.) Offered without comment beyond “Oh, goody!” (Note: your correspondent from the conservative wing of the extreme left is fully aware that no distinction is being made between the Common European Cootie and the North American Spotted Cootie. I am fully aware that the European Cootie has a much smaller carrying capacity than its American cousin, and am not attempting to obfuscate this crucial issue, nor am I attempting to provoke hysteria by shouting "European Cootie! OMG! 9-11! AAAaaroooga! AAAaaaroooga!..) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/277 "2009-08-18T17:05:59Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > My point was still true, though, that some scary-sounding bullets that were actually the least capable of penetrating armor started a cop killer bullets hysteria. Oh, yeah. It’s just one of those stupid things that bothers me like assault rifles bothers Argent. And now I’m wondering if you could make silver bullets like KTW’s brass ones, and how well they’d fly. That might solve the ‘silver bullets tumble’ problem. ---
**Author:** ![Redwing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@Redwing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redwing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/278 "2009-08-18T17:22:43Z")
**’luci** , unless things have changed since I left the state with all the lakes, I’m pretty sure that you encounter someone carrying a firearm fairly often. When I was learning to shoot there were a surprising number of people who showed up at the range to practice with their handguns, handguns that came out of and went back into their CC holsters. Though the thing I really came in here to point out to you is the state flag. If you look at the seal, you’ll note that there’s a farmer pushing his plow, with his head turned to watch the Indian in the background. Leaning against a stump nearby is the farmer’s rifle. It was pointed out to us, rather heavy handedly, that the gun was there for the farmer to defend himself should the Indian prove hostile. The attitude difference between Minnesotans and Texans seems to be more one of belligerence than anything to do with guns. A typical Minnesotan is a lot less likely to shoot you because you’re arguing over politics\*, but he’s not that much less likely to have a gun. \*if he shoots you, who’ll bring the hotdish next week? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/279 "2009-08-18T17:31:34Z")
Oh, well, you just stop right there! I won’t have it! You cannot go around confusing “hot dish” with casserole! First off, a “hot dish” _must_ contain one can Campbell’s Cream of Mushroom soup, whereas a casserole is not confined by such definitions! I simply will not stand idly by and let such obfuscation pass! Nosir! ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377/280 "2009-08-18T17:35:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Angry people + firearms = bleeding angry people Not at the town hall meeting. Lots of angry people, people with guns. No one got shot? Strawman? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nut-with-gun-at-town-hall/506377.md?page=15)