# NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 21, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991 "2022-09-21T16:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1982 "2024-02-01T21:25:13Z")
Ignorance fought! ⚔ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1983 "2024-02-01T21:57:48Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > So I’ve been mulling @Northern_Piper’s point about how the law reserves the cancelling of business certificates for the most severe violations, which the Trump Orgs may not have risen too in the materials seen to date Hey, as I repeatedly say, I’m not a U.S. lawyer, and all I know about the NY law in issue is what I read in the papers. However, that piece linked upthread highlighted how rare an absolute dissolution is, rather than disgorgement of profits. I’m as curious as you to see what the judge does, but there generally is a principle that the remedy has to be proportionate to the illegal conduct. I do find it interesting that the AG NY did not ask for the de-listing order, according to that article, and that the judge came up with it on his own. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1984 "2024-02-01T22:12:09Z")
Well, I’m not BLAMING you or holding you responsible. Your points (and they seem valid) made me reconsider how much of my desire is being driven by the heartfelt desire to punish Trump vs what that the law may entail. And I’m in the group that would rather see a crook get an unbeatable, if smaller penalty than a speculative greater penalty at greater risk, AS LONG AS said smaller penalty is still within the loose realms that the law allows for justice. Plus, let’s be honest, the thought of Trump Org and it’s crime family top constantly having to answer to a nanny on their efforts to cheat absolutely FILLS me with schadenfreude, as well as the near certain conviction they’d still fuck it up and end right back in court. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1985 "2024-02-01T22:15:26Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > I considered it common enough to not require a link It is. Jan 25 [The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) - #5359 by LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other/600499/5359) Jan 17 [About trump's immunity fantasy - #11 by Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/11) etc etc ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1986 "2024-02-01T22:21:44Z")
I’m a bit surprised that there is an issue with “no victims” after the devastation that hit the US and the world after the 2008 housing crises. Misleading real estate values, risky loans given to questionable debtors, and high debt levels all caused massive problems for the world’s economy. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1987 "2024-02-01T22:27:58Z")
If he overstated the value in order to get bigger loans and then understated the value for tax purposes, how is that something other than literal tax fraud? Is it “_because everyone else does it_” ? And does that make it ok? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1988 "2024-02-01T22:29:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m a bit surprised that there is an issue with “no victims” after the devastation that hit the US and the world after the 2008 housing crises. Misleading real estate values, risky loans given to questionable debtors, and high debt levels all caused massive problems for the world’s economy. It’s a little bit like the tobacco companies claim in the past that although yes, their products caused cancer, you could not pin a _specific_ cancer in a _specific_ person to the _specific_ tobacco product. So therefore there were no victims. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1989 "2024-02-01T22:43:05Z")
In this case, however, I thought it was pinned on the lenders losing money and more favorable insurance rates than he would have gotten with proper valuations. Meaning both of those folks definitely had losses due to his fraud. Won’t even go into speculative loss if he had defaulted. At these bits of money - 1/10 of a percent is still ALOT of money. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1990 "2024-02-01T23:10:44Z")
And it may be that the judge could conclude that the fraud committed by Trump Org is so broad that even without individual victims, such fraud does broad harm to honest business practices that it should warrant delisting the companies, for the reasons advanced by Riemann Hamlet and simster. We have to wait and see what he does. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1991 "2024-02-01T23:18:57Z")
One peek at what could inform Engoron’s thinking on this – the non-monetary damages: > In a footnote in a 94-page summary document filed earlier this month, Letitia James suggested a compromise decision for Engoron: Appoint an independent monitor to oversee Trump’s operations for five years, after which the court could decide whether to revoke his business certificates and possibly put him out of business. [**SOURCE**](https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-business-law-courts-banks-lending-punishment-2ee9e509a28c24d0cda92da2f9a9b689) I think this has a pretty high likelihood of being the eventual outcome. Plus the money hit. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1992 "2024-02-01T23:24:58Z")
Former Trump CFO, Allen Weisselberg, [wait for it] may have lied during the NYS Civil Fraud trial: > [@A Perfectly Reasonable Amount of Schadenfreude about Things Happening to Trump & His Enablers (Part 2)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-perfectly-reasonable-amount-of-schadenfreude-about-things-happening-to-trump-his-enablers-part-2/984250/3963): > > Trump CFO Allen Weisselberg negotiating a perjury guilty plea. I know, right?? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1993 "2024-02-01T23:57:38Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I think this has a pretty high likelihood of being the eventual outcome. Future Trump tweet: The independent monitor, from 123 sunny st., brooklyn, is being very unfair. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1994 "2024-02-02T00:47:59Z")
That wouldn’t make much sense, given that the current monitor is continuing to find fraud _while_ he’s being monitored - so that’s not much of a penalty or a deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1995 "2024-02-02T00:48:51Z")
We covered this perjury issue upthread, starting with this post on October 13 by @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness : > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Given all the other news this week, I was wondering if there was just nothing happening in this trial. > > Nope. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1996 "2024-02-02T14:33:48Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I was not familiar with this expression (and I like to consider myself an edumacated person). So here is some background: > [@ParallelLines](#): > > I apologize, I considered it common enough to not require a link, and thank you @ThelmaLou for making it clear to anyone else whom I may have confused. > [@Riemann](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > I considered it common enough to not require a link > > It is. > > Jan 25 > [The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) - #5359 by LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other/600499/5359) > > Jan 17 > [About trump’s immunity fantasy - #11 by Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/11) > > etc > etc And in this very thread about two months ago, posted by yours truly. > [@NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1632): > > This is the most disgusting part of that article: Trump’s lead attorney Christopher Kise [said]: “It’s a tragic day for the rule of law.” “In a country where the First Amendment is sacrosanct, President Trump may not even comment on why he thinks he cannot get a fair trial,” Kise added in a subsequent statement to the press. “Hard to imagine a more unfair process and hard to believe this is happening in America.” How dare they stop us from insulting, threatening, and inciting our followers … ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1997 "2024-02-02T15:05:09Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > the whole shebang was slated to be replaced, but several vendors who looked at it said they couldn’t recreate the required functionality within their packages (it’s kind of esoteric: liquor and cannabis licensing) (If this is considered a thread hijack, I apologize, but given the number of COBOL posts in this thread, I think/hope it’s OK.) The value of those billions of lines of COBOL lie in the captured knowledge they represent. Companies have failed because some bright young buck decided it was critical to move to a more “modern” language, and tried to rewrite mission-critical logic. Not only is this always more expensive than predicted, but it’s all but guaranteed to miss things–that bit of special-case handling that Fred put in on a Thursday afternoon in 1982. Fred is not part of the conversion because he retired and then DIED, so there’s no hope of understanding it until it’s failed. Yes, decent comments/documentation would solve this. Be serious, that never exists. The smarter companies move the easy stuff and leave the core in COBOL, whether on the mainframe or rehosted under Linux. The dumber ones let the CxO have his (always “his”, it seems) way, and by the time the size of the mistake is clear, he’s moved on anyway. Makes me sad. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1998 "2024-02-02T16:03:37Z")
Moderating: > [@phs3](#): > > (If this is considered a thread hijack, I apologize, but given the number of COBOL posts in this thread, I think/hope it’s OK.) It really is a hijack, not started by you, but let’s stop it now. To all: Take the COBOL discussion elsewhere. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1999 "2024-02-06T19:12:05Z")
I had been hoping to see a verdict in this case today, to go along with the Appeals Court decision, making it a very, very bad day for Trump. It doesn’t look like it will be coming any time soon though. Judge Engoron has issued an order requiring the parties to inform the Court what they know about the perjury plea deal in the works by Trump CFO Allen Weisselberg, for perjury he committed in the fraud case. I think the verdict is likely to be huge in any event, but a perjury conviction for a “star witness” is likely to make it even worse. > **[Trump fraud trial judge demands details about possible perjury by Allen...](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/06/trump-fraud-judge-asks-about-potential-weisselberg-perjury.html)** > > New York Attorney General Letitia James is suing Donald Trump, his adult sons, his company and its top executives for allegedly inflating Trump's net worth. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2000 "2024-02-06T20:05:25Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > I think the verdict is likely to be huge in any event, but a perjury conviction for a “star witness” is likely to make it even worse. This is probably a good thing worth waiting for. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2001 "2024-02-06T22:21:16Z")
That, along with the recent revelation about Trump’s $48m “loan”, is not likely to result in a better outcome for Trump by any means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=101)