# NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 21, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991 "2022-09-21T16:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 141
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2802 "2024-03-21T02:12:14Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > … maybe > > > The Miami-based SPAC has a history of postponing and rescheduling shareholder votes. > > [**SOURCE**](https://www.investors.com/news/dwac-stock-trump-media-merger-vote-donald-trump-needs-cash/) I think the constant postponing of the shareholder votes was because ahead of each vote they knew they didn’t have enough votes in favor of the merge yet. So each time when they didn’t have the numbers, they would just delay and reschedule, rinse and repeat until they had whipped up enough votes to pass it. Now they think they have the numbers, but one of the bigger shareholders/former executive is trying to scuttle the merger with a lawsuit and DWAC has filed a suit against him to force a yes vote, so Friday might be another delayed vote and the fucking drama continues. But that’s all me going from memory. I might be wrong. I’m kind of getting saturated with it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2803 "2024-03-21T02:12:52Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Mar-a lago? Do it’s members, who paid a big up-front fee, have no rights? I would guess they have the right to pay their yearly fees to the new owner, whoever the creditor sells Mar-A-Lago to. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2804 "2024-03-21T02:22:09Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I think Trump Tower is mostly condos that were sold shortly after the building was completed. There must be rules on giving notice before evicting, and ways to appeal, right? I guess that Trump owns his own apartment. I’m going out on a limb and predict he is not going to be evicted before election day. Broadly speaking, the difference between a condo and an apartment is one of ownership. You own a condo much in the same way you might own a house. Whereas you rent an apartment that is generally part of a larger structure full of other apartments being rented out. I imagine you might lease a condo in a similiar manner that you might lease a house, but it’s still a condo. Even if a property were owned outright by Trump, you wouldn’t be able to evict anyone who owned a condo there. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Mar-a lago? Do it’s members, who paid a big up-front fee, have no rights? What do you think happens to gym members if their gym shuts down? I suppose they could go after the Trump organization but I suspect they’d be pissing in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2805 "2024-03-21T02:29:45Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What do you think happens to gym members if their gym shuts down? There’s a difference between a gym shutting down (usually from lack of cash flow), and being bought out as a going concern. In the first case, since the business is out of business, there’s not much recourse. But in the second, if the new owner is operating it, they normally would be liable for the contracts of the former owner. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2806 "2024-03-21T03:00:05Z")
It’s worth noting that Trump’s interest in 40 Wall Street is via a ground lease: > **[What Is a Ground Lease? | The Motley Fool](https://www.fool.com/investing/stock-market/market-sectors/real-estate-investing/commercial-real-estate/ground-lease/)** > > A ground lease involves undeveloped commercial land that is leased to tenants, who then have the rights to develop and use the property for the duration of the lease. Think about a mobile home park, where individual owners _own_ their mobile homes, but they _lease_ the space on which that MH sits (space rental). Trump apparently owns the building at 40 Wall Street (thereby generating income from its tenants), but he _leases_ (ie, pays rent for) the ground on which it sits. [sarcasm]To whom he _writes_ those rent checks is an exceedingly simple matter [/sarcasm] > **[40 Wall Street | Donald Trump | Walter Hinneberg](https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2017/01/06/meet-the-obscure-german-magnates-who-actually-own-trumps-most-valuable-building/)** > > Untangling the complicated ownership web of 40 Wall Street, Donald Trump's most valuable asset. Depending on about 5,000 different things, Trump’s leasehold interest in this building … could be worth a great deal, explaining why it seemingly keeps coming up in the press and why Letitia James utters that address in her sleep (or so I’m told). ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2807 "2024-03-21T07:07:41Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Picture of the jet with the Boot! 😅 Seize his Jet! Make him campaign via Uber! ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2808 "2024-03-21T08:45:34Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Oh, please let them go first for Mar-a-Largo! Sophie’s choice, 2023 edition. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2809 "2024-03-21T09:24:20Z")
> [@dougrb](#): > > I can’t find anything on it, but didn’t Trump say in an interview (late 80’s- early 90’s) that a bum on the street had more money than he did because the bum had $0. [But the most scintillating anecdote naturally features her father, Donald Trump: “I remember once my father and I were walking down Fifth Avenue and there was a homeless person sitting right outside of Trump Tower… it was around the same time as the divorce. And I remember my father pointing to him and saying, ‘You know that guy has 8 billion dollars more than me.’ Because he was in such extreme debt at that point.”](https://www.thedailybeast.com/when-ivanka-trump-was-a-kardashian) ---
**Author:** ![ColdBrew50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@ColdBrew50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdBrew50)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2810 "2024-03-21T10:14:41Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Maybe even break open that bottle of Pappy. > [@Disinfectus](#): > > John Walker Blue will have to suffice. > [@silenus](#): > > Unopened bottle of the 12 year old. Last auction sale I’m aware of it fetched $1200+. Laphroiag 10 or 12 or Green Spot. No, not as high-class as some of you, but it’s all relative. Cask-strength Writers Tears if they ever see fit to distribute it. But I’m waiting until the sheep come home and all the runners are caught out. I like the Oban idea, though: heard good things, from some of the best people, so that might be an easy experiment, most likely worthwhile. Apolgies for the hijack…I’m done with that, but seemed like a good idea at the time! ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2811 "2024-03-21T10:28:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > If the Debtor has personal property, like a car, boat or jewelry: So they can take his private jet and helicopters? Even if he claims they are used in campaigning and getting to his numerous court hearings? That would be sweet to see him have to thumb rides. And Melanias jewelry? Is that fair game as well? I’d think she has a substantial amount of her nestegg in jewelery. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2812 "2024-03-21T10:31:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would guess they have the right to pay their yearly fees to the new owner, whoever the creditor sells Mar-A-Lago to. Yes. That’s what a change in control typically entails: the new owner assumes all the legal obligations associated with ownership. Nobody will get kicked out. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2813 "2024-03-21T10:38:12Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > So they can take his private jet and helicopters? Even if he claims they are used in campaigning and getting to his numerous court hearings? If they belong to Trump and not his campaign, yes (although the ownership of both is almost certainly buried in a long chain of shell companies). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2814 "2024-03-21T10:46:57Z")
Courts et.al. are also good at seeing through sham ownerships, where the asset is owned on paper (say, a relative), but the ownership agreement contractually provides that virtually all the financial benefits go to somebody else. I’m assuming the maze that is his financial holdings includes several. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2815 "2024-03-21T11:26:35Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > So they can take his private jet and helicopters? They could. His private jet would be small potatoes compared to the total owed, but I can hear him now: “They’re preventing me from flying to meet you!” No, Donnie, they’ve just knocked $16M off what you owe. Now, you get to Little Rock or Lincoln or Pueblo on commercial. I hear Southwest is nice. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2816 "2024-03-21T11:58:17Z")
The prospect of officials requiring detailed accounting of, and seizing, his personal possessions has great appeal to me. I’d like to see a nice “sheriff’s sale” of his furniture, mementos, golden toilet… It has been a long time since I participated in any possessions, but at the time, in Illinois, you were allowed ONE residence which was free from seizure (but subject to lien). Does the Chump actually OWN multiple residences, or does he just squat for free at the various resorts/buildings he has part ownership of? Does he OWN cars/plane/helicopter, or again, just skim use of them from corporations? I presume jewelry that was given to/is owned by Melania would not be subject to seizure. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2817 "2024-03-21T12:15:06Z")
Quoting myself from upthread: > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Remember the case of the Scottish helicopter, where Trump owned a trust, that owned 99% of a NJ corporation, that owned 99% of another NJ corporation, that owed a Scottish company, that owned another Scottish company, that owned the helicopter. Who owned those 1% interests in the two NJ companies? That makes it difficult to say that Trump was the beneficial owner of the helicopter, because there is someone else in the chain of ownership. > > The Wall Street Journal article concluded that fifteen different entities were involved in owning Trump’s two helicopters and three airplanes. So Trump didn’t own the helicopter. He controlled the ownership, through a series of trusts and corporations, set up under the laws of three different jurisdictions (New York, New Jersey, and Scotland). What’s the status of a revocable trust under New York law? Dunno. How easy is it to seize the assets of that trust? Dunno. Who are the beneficiaries of that trust? Dunno, but if someone other than Don the Con is a part beneficiary, then it gets complicated, I would guess. Moving on to the two New Jersey companies, who are the other 1 per cent shareholders? Because corporation law has the principle that the majority shareholders cannot oppress the minority shareholders. For instance, the majority shareholders can’t treat the assets of the corporation like their own personal property, selling the assets off to satisfy their own personal debts. And how does Scots corporation law work, with those two companies? Does the second New Jersey company have complete ownership of the first Scots company? Dunno. It’s not impossible to untangle that network of companies, but my guess is that it will be difficult and take time. So even if Trump arrives in New York city in a jet with “Trump” on it, that doesn’t mean that the bailiffs hired by the AGNY can just seize it. That have to show that Trump, or Trump Org, or Trump Spawn 1 or 2 owns it. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to untangle it all and seize assets, but it won’t be simple, is my guess. As always, IANAUSL. (Using the Scottish helicopter here as an example, because it was the one featured in the Wall St Journal article in 2016. It has apparently since been sold, by the Scottish company that owned it. However, the WSJ article indicated that there was a similar network of ownership for another helicopter and three Trump planes.) ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2818 "2024-03-21T12:20:39Z")
My thinking here is that possibly they could tie the planes and helicopters up since they could show that Trump is the only person that uses them, thus he is the defacto owner. Then let the courts hash it out. Unfortunately, that may only apply to criminal seizures of property, like drug lords vehicles, boats and planes. This guy is such a worm. Arrgh! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2819 "2024-03-21T12:26:39Z")
Maybe. I dunno. That’s an argument that Trump has beneficial ownership. Would it work? That would really be getting into the weeds of NY debt collection law (and the law in other jurisdictions). Lots of work for high-priced NY lawyers and debt-collectors, would be my guess. To quote George Harrison again: > [@](#): > > But it’s gonna take money > A whole lotta spending money > It’s gonna take plenty of money > To do it right, child > > It’s gonna take time > A whole lot of precious time > It’s gonna take patience and time, mmm > To do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it > To do it right, child ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2820 "2024-03-21T12:53:03Z")
But if a property like a building is owned by a dozen interwoven trusts and shell companies, how does he (or the Trump org) use its value to get a loan? Surely a lender won’t take collateral that can’t be collected. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/2821 "2024-03-21T13:11:32Z")
I don’t know. This is high finance. But part of it is that a secured creditor is a better spot than a judgment creditor. If Big Bank took a mortgage of TrumpProperty #2, that puts them ahead of unsecured creditors like a judgment creditor. If the mortgage was originally granted years ago, and Trump has been able to re-finance each time it came due, then the security is likely still good, even if now the mortgage holder is MegaBank, not Big Bank. I also understand from various news articles that a part of Trump’s loan collaterals is his personal net worth: that to keep the loan in good standing, he must maintain a personal net worth of a certain amount, at a value required by the bank he’s dealing with. If he drops below that personal net worth, the bank can call in the loan. That may be how these rat’s-nests of assets factor into the decision by a bank to loan money, based on Trump’s assurances that he has a personal net worth of $ X billion, through all of his various personal assets and non-liquid holdings. But how does the bank know that he has a personal net worth of $ X billion? Well, Trump and his accountants have assured them that he does. But wait … isn’t that the problem here? 😀 That may mean that the fact of now having a new debt of over half a billion affects the status of the loans, even before any enforcement. Trump’s personal balance sheet just changed drastically with the court order. At some point, the banks may have to decide whether that change in his balance sheet, coupled with the court’s finding that he drastically over-inflated the value of his personal assets, mean that he has dropped below the minimum net worth he’s required to maintain, and that they have to consider calling the loan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=140) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=142)