# NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 21, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991 "2022-09-21T16:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/662 "2023-10-10T06:02:38Z")
Interesting article, thanks. This comment on Trump’s instructions to his lawyers to fight dirty made me chuckle: > “A lot of this is just begging for sanctions,” says one attorney who’s known Trump for years. “It is not how I’d do it, but … maybe that’s a reason I’m not on the [legal] team.” And this comment about whether trump will testify flagged the basic concern that all of his lawyers must have: > [@](#): > > The former president is famous for delivering public bluster about how much he’d relish testifying for an investigation or during an official proceeding, only to later have his attorneys deploy delay tactic after delay tactic. This is in part due to his legal teams’ recurring fears through the years about **just how much he would uncontrollably lie or possibly incriminate himself under oath.** > > **“Of course that remains an issue, as always** ,” says a source familiar with the Trump team’s internal discussions on this. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/663 "2023-10-10T18:39:21Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Basically, they know they have essentially no chance to prevail in the current proceeding, but by antagonizing the judge, while this increases the chances of a harsher result in the short term, they may be able to bait him into behavior that establishes some sort of foundation on appeal. It’s a high risk strategy but it aligns with Trump’s reflexive “always fight, never surrender” philosophy. I think this is a good analysis, of course, with the given that they were going to claim all behavior, innocent (such as gag orders as a NOT random example) or otherwise, as their cause for appeal. And yes, it _perfectly_ matches with Trump’s attitudes, which probably made it easy to sell to him. It might even work, although, as with the above, it might also backfire, such as if Trump or his cronies end up breaking their gag orders, but yeah, it does strike me as ALSO likely to end up with a metric ton of sanctions for the lawyers. Oh wait, that would be _more_ sanctions for his lawyers. There will always be another fool lining up to sacrifice themselves apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/664 "2023-10-10T18:52:57Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > This article suggests there may be some tactical method to the Trump team’s shenanigans in the NY case. It seemed pretty obvious that Trump’s team is hoping to win on appeal, but I’m having trouble following their train of logic. As I understand it, and I’m certailny no legal expert, when you make an appeal you have to argue there was some sort of procedural error, the court made an error in judgment based on their interpretation of the law, or something similar. If the plan is to piss the judge off to the point where they argue he was prejudicial against Trump, well, good luck. I don’t think Engoran’s taking the bait. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/665 "2023-10-10T18:56:00Z")
For this defense against Trump’s appeal, wouldn’t Engoran be issuing warnings on an almost-daily basis? “I’m telling ya, you do this ONE MORE TIME…” ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/666 "2023-10-10T19:06:17Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > As I understand it, and I’m certailny no legal expert, when you make an appeal you have to argue there was some sort of procedural error, the court made an error in judgment based on their interpretation of the law, or something similar. You’ve got it right. Appeals are for the sole purpose of determining if the judge applied the law correctly to the facts as they were found to be true. The factual determination – usually made by a jury – is not a basis for appellate review _except_ in cases where there are allegations of juror error and/or misconduct. Those are dealt with during the trial so they can be remedied before a judgment is rendered by a potentially flawed jury. In this case, the finder of fact is the judge. It was a bold move for Engoran to rule in favor of the prosecution on a summary judgment motion, and I can only believe that to have done so, this very experienced judge was certain in his belief that his findings of fact would withstand appellate review. And you’re also right about Engoran. He isn’t taking the bait. He knows exactly what Trump and his team are trying to do. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/667 "2023-10-10T19:27:27Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > And you’re also right about Engoran. He isn’t taking the bait. He knows exactly what Trump and his team are trying to do. In addition, sometimes appeal courts come back and award larger settlements. Piss off the judiciary enough and you may be taking a chance in appealing a decision that is actually fair in the eyes of the court system. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/668 "2023-10-11T09:45:02Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If the plan is to piss the judge off to the point where they argue he was prejudicial against Trump, well, good luck. This is, I think, the plan. If they can get him on the record saying and/or writing something angry and/or intemperate, they will use that as a pretext for arguing that some associated or following ruling was made on the basis of prejudice or otherwise in error. Whether or not there is anything resembling an arguable error is irrelevant; this is just about trying to get the tiniest fig leaf to justify gumming up the works. And I agree that he knows what they’re doing and isn’t taking the bait. My hope is that the future judges who catch the inevitable appeals are equally perspicacious. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/669 "2023-10-11T11:23:33Z")
Nitpick: Engoron, not Engoran. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/670 "2023-10-11T14:04:49Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > This is, I think, the plan. If they can get him on the record saying and/or writing something angry and/or intemperate, they will use that as a pretext for arguing that some associated or following ruling was made on the basis of prejudice or otherwise in error. Whether or not there is anything resembling an arguable error is irrelevant; this is just about trying to get the tiniest fig leaf to justify gumming up the works. And, again, this is where I’m having trouble following their logic. If you’re trying to win on appeal, you’re going to have to have something resembling an arguable error. For the appeals court to rule that Engoron was prejudical, Trump’s attorneys are going to have to show them something more than an annoyed or snarky judge. From the last few years, Trump has lost most of his court cases even when appealing them. I guess what I’m seeing here isn’t a well thought out strategy but one born out of desperation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/671 "2023-10-11T14:44:23Z")
And in the “only the best people” category, Trump’s Chief Financial Officer apparently has a terrible memory. That’s exactly the skill set that Trump would like in his CFO, I assume. > [@](#): > > Allen Weisselberg, the former chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, knows that he was involved in creating so-called statements of financial condition for former President Donald Trump for years. > > He doesn’t remember much else. > > Weisselberg replied with variations of “I don’t recall” to dozens of questions in a New York courtroom on Tuesday, where he testified [in a trial](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-civil-fraud-trial-new-york-opening-arguments/) accusing him, Trump, two of Trump’s sons and their company of years of fraud connected with the statements. > > He didn’t recall speaking with Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump or their former fixer and attorney about the documents, which were crucial to the company’s efforts to make deals with banks and insurers. He didn’t recall the phrase “estimated current value,” which both sides agree is crucial to understanding their arguments. He didn’t recall details of “generally accepted accounting principles,” noting he’s not a certified public accountant. > **["I don't recall": Allen Weisselberg, ex-Trump Org CFO, draws a blank on...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-trial-allen-weisselberg-testimony/)** > > Allen Weisselberg, the former chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, replied with variations of "I don't recall" to dozens of questions in a New York courtroom on Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/672 "2023-10-11T14:45:15Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I guess what I’m seeing here isn’t a well thought out strategy but one born out of desperation. Bingo. They have nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/673 "2023-10-11T16:47:27Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > For the appeals court to rule that Engoron was prejudical, Trump’s attorneys are going to have to show them something more than an annoyed or snarky judge. In Wisconsin, our Supreme Court just flipped and is now has a democratic majority. As a redistricting case is coming up, Robin Vos (dumbass-WI) has been threatening to impeach the Judge that tipped the scales for not recusing herself from the case after calling it rigged. I was worried about that one, I mean, it made sense, right? She said the maps are rigged, so she’s prejudiced, right? Well, he lost republican support for the impeachment, Judge Janet [the judge in question] told him to pound sand and a retired republican supreme court justice also told him to back off. For now, she seems to be safe. Unrelated, but a brewery I ran across a few years ago but chose not to pursue because they’re _so_ political came out with this (and one of their sales people showed up at my store the other day). [https://thirstie-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/clh9jpgn500cl0frtefnwufbz/attachments/cllv4jjhc04eg0bo9v2764wxb-e78c1035-3e68-49b5-b6e6-f1f35a1e01fe.1.0.1412.1412.full.jpg](https://thirstie-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/clh9jpgn500cl0frtefnwufbz/attachments/cllv4jjhc04eg0bo9v2764wxb-e78c1035-3e68-49b5-b6e6-f1f35a1e01fe.1.0.1412.1412.full.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/674 "2023-10-11T17:48:26Z")
**Moderating:** I have to say, I love those beer cans, but it’s a bit off from the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/675 "2023-10-11T20:00:37Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@Odesio](#): > > > > I guess what I’m seeing here isn’t a well thought out strategy but one born out of desperation. > > Bingo. They have nothing else. Exactly. If they had a better strategy they’d use it. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/676 "2023-10-11T20:04:16Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Exactly. If they had a better strategy they’d use it. Sir, lets use our best strategy… No! that’s exactly what they’d expect us to do! ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/677 "2023-10-11T21:23:27Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Sir, lets use our best strategy… No! that’s exactly what they’d expect us to do! I have told you, we aren’t going with plea deal, and that’s final! ( of course, that was 4 indictments and multiple additional charges of likely obstruction of justice ago…) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/678 "2023-10-13T14:50:51Z")
Given all the other news this week, I was wondering if there was just nothing happening in this trial. Nope. > **[Trump’s Longtime CFO Lied, Under Oath, About Trump Tower Penthouse](https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2023/10/12/trumps-longtime-cfo-lied-under-oath-about-trump-tower-penthouse/?sh=7d906272db29&utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_content=11545439736&utm_campaign=sprinklrForbesMainTwitter)** > > In trying to distance himself from Donald Trump’s false financial statements, Allen Weisselberg kept lying. > [@](#): > > Allen Weisselberg, the longtime chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, lied in sworn testimony on Tuesday when questioned about Donald Trump’s penthouse atop Trump Tower. > … > Under questioning, Weisselberg acknowledged that the 30,000-square-foot figure was wrong. He tried to suggest, however, that he had little to do with the bogus calculation, batting away a series of questions about the financial documents and discussions with _Forbes_ , which has been valuing Trump’s fortune since 1982. > … > But that’s not true. A review of old emails and notes, some of which the attorney general’s office does not possess, show that Weisselberg absolutely thought about Trump’s apartment—and played a key role in trying to convince _Forbes_ over the course of several years that it was worth more than it really was. Given the fact that these discussions continued for years, and that Weisselberg took a very detailed approach in reviewing Trump’s assets with _Forbes_ , it defies all logic to think he truly believes what he is now saying in court. Forbes comes with receipts on Thursday. Thursday afternoon, Weisselberg was testifying, and the report came out. The judge called a sidebar with prosecution and defense attorneys, then excused Weisselberg for the day. There may be perjury charges incoming. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/679 "2023-10-13T15:24:27Z")
Trump seems to do a good job of making other people lie for him and then he can just repeat those lies as if they’re fact. And now many of those people, with tears in their eyes, are realizing that they only way to escape him is to incriminate themselves. Trying to distance yourself by lying more isn’t helping. On the other hand, Trump, I think, is finding out that he’s put so much pressure on so many people to lie for him, they’re starting to flip. It seems we keep finding more people that would rather spend some time in jail if it means finally getting away from him. Like a spouse that finally decides they’d rather fight a murder charge than their abuser. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/680 "2023-10-13T15:52:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thursday afternoon, Weisselberg was testifying, and the report came out. The judge called a sidebar with prosecution and defense attorneys, then excused Weisselberg for the day. > > There may be perjury charges incoming. Prediction: Weisselberg has a “medical emergency” and his doctor says he needs to stay on bed rest for a long while. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/681 "2023-10-13T16:15:50Z")
Well put. And it’s astounding that people voluntarily go into that situation, knowing full-well the reputation he has. Yet, there appears to be no shortage of otherwise smart people willing to throw it all way for that loser. I mean, they can see the bus coming, and Trump is standing behind them, with his little hands on the back of their shoulders. It bagels the mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=35)