# NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 21, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991 "2022-09-21T16:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1162 "2023-11-07T18:25:12Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > Legally, if Trump, during one of his rants inadvertently said something incriminating that was not relevant to the civil trial, could that be used as evidence by other prosecutors in other cases against Trump or his accomplices? Yes. This is the reason people often invoke their 5th amendment rights during a civil trial. While this might hurt the defendant of a civil trial, it will at least protect them should they face a criminal trial later. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1163 "2023-11-07T18:26:02Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > As I explained it at home…. > > The judge has already decided Trump’s going to get spanked. The trial is just being held to determine what implement to use and how many whacks he deserves. And what does that choice of analogy say about the dynamics within casa Hedonia? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1164 "2023-11-07T18:26:30Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > the current trial is about the fines and possibility of being barred from doing business in the state Actually, the current trial is about the State’s six claims _not covered by the summary judgment_, which include falsifying business records and conspiracy - a guilty verdict would include $250 million in fines. The first summary judgement (currently under appeal) would remove the Trump org’s business licenses in New York and bar them from doing business in the state. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1165 "2023-11-07T18:31:03Z")
It’s worth calling out @Euphonious_Polemic for **[having clarified](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1155)** that the current Letitia James/Trump trial is NOT simply a penalty phase: > [@](#): > > **This trial concerns six remaining claims in the lawsuit, including allegations of conspiracy, falsifying business records and insurance fraud.** It is a non-jury trial, which Engoron said was legally required when a suit seeks not only money but a court order setting out something a defendant must do or not do. > > James is seeking $250 million in penalties and a ban on Trump doing business in New York. [bolding mine] > **[Trump remains defiant in New York fraud trial that accuses him of lying about...](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-arrives-in-new-york-court-for-trial-in-lawsuit-that-could-jeopardize-his-real-estate-empire)** > > Aggrieved and defiant, former President Donald Trump sat through hours of sometimes testy opening statements Monday in a fraud lawsuit that could cost him control of Trump Tower and other prized properties. So the determination of “guilt or innocence” under the Civil Fraud charge isn’t yet complete. As a practical matter, though, I’m not clear on how granularly the penalties could be assessed, or if – effectively – there’s an all-or-nothing aspect to this. I’m assuming the claims/charges tie to individual properties, and that fighting the judgment on remaining claims still has the potential to reduce the money judgment and Equitable Relief penalties Trump could potentially face. Though … it’s possible that prevailing in remaining claims could save him some money judgments but have no effect on being stripped of his ability to do biz in NYS. Maybe 😉 ETA: cite for the top part: > Upon the foregoing documents, it is hereby ordered that defendants motion for summary judgment is denied, plaintiff’s motion for partial summary judgment is granted in part, and plaintiff’s motion for sanctions is granted in part, all as detailed herein [**SOURCE - 35pp PDF**](https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/trump-judges-ruling/ce6de7d636227e1b/full.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1166 "2023-11-07T18:36:03Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > So I assume the pending request for mistrial is performative? All in service of the appeal? Has Team Trump formally applied for a mistrial? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1167 "2023-11-07T18:37:41Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Though … it’s possible that prevailing in remaining claims could save him some money judgments but have no effect on being stripped of his ability to do biz in NYS. Trump’s defense lawyers [put in an appeal](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/06/politics/donald-trump-judge-engoron/index.html) last month for the [Sept 26 summary judgement](https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/26/politics/trump-organization-business-fraud/index.html) which both canceled the business certifications of the Trump Org, and ordered a receiver to be put in place to manage the dissolution of the corporate entities. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1168 "2023-11-07T18:37:42Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > > [@bobot](#): > > > > He also said “I want a jury”. As if thats how its done. > > I wish that had been recorded. I imagine it was said in the manner of a five-year-old who didn’t get a cookie. Arms crossed, bottom lip out, “I want a jury.” Was this during his testimony? (Not trying to be snarky with this request and the post preceding; just too much going on to follow easily.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1169 "2023-11-07T18:40:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Was this during his testimony? I think it was. From CNN: > After a lengthy monologue from Donald Trump where he attacked the state of New York and said businesses are leaving because of cases “like his,” Kevin Wallace of the New York attorney general’s office calmly said to the former president, “I promise you Mr. Trump I’m trying to get you off the stand.” > > “Great, I’m sure you are,” Trump replied. > > Trump complained of “election interference” and a “very hostile judge,” referring to Judge Arthur Engoron. > > Trump then said, “I don’t have a jury. And I want a jury," he said. > > Trump has complained about a lack of a jury throughout the trial. > > Experts have said his attorneys could have litigated a request for a jury ahead of the trial, although the chances that he would have gotten one were slim. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1170 "2023-11-07T18:40:37Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > > [@velomont](#): > > > > Legally, if Trump, during one of his rants inadvertently said something incriminating that was not relevant to the civil trial, could that be used as evidence by other prosecutors in other cases against Trump or his accomplices? > > > > Would this be one reason to let him rant? > > Of course it could, it’s a matter of public record taken under oath and other prosecutors can and will take advantage of this. Since it is under oath he can not claim that it was “just bluster” without committing perjury. And yes, letting him rant while under oath is a gold mine of self incrimination. It’s also noteworthy that the defense attorneys did not have any questions. They wanted to get Trump off the stand as quickly as possible to prevent any more damage. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1171 "2023-11-07T18:41:19Z")
I guess I’m fuzzy, here. There’s the judgment and there’s the penalty assessed – two separate issues. There’s the current trial and there’s the partial Summary Judgment and penalties already assessed, and currently under appeal. Do we have any insight into how the fight in the current trial could affect the issues already decided and under appeal? IOW, is there any practical crossover between the stakes in the current trial and the stakes in the last trial, currently under appeal? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1172 "2023-11-07T18:43:32Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > IOW, is there any practical crossover between the stakes in the current trial and the stakes in the last trial, currently under appeal? Good question. I suspect not, and that these (prior summary judgement/appeal and the current trial) are two separate issues, but perhaps a law talking person could give us a more definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1173 "2023-11-07T19:00:15Z")
I hope Habba cut the judge a little slack today, after all she made it clear she wouldn’t tolerate his disrespect. You really can’t raise your voice to someone like Alina Hobba and not expect to suffer the repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1174 "2023-11-07T19:03:00Z")
Trying to parse a bit further: The Plaintiff’s First Cause of Action (the Plaintiff prevailed via Summary Judgment) was Fraud under Executive Law § 63(12). Full stop. That’s big. The penalties awarded to the DA via Summary Judgment were threefold: > any certificates filed under and by virtue of GBL130 by any of the entity defendants or by any other entity controlled or beneficially owned by Donald J Trump, Donald Trump, Jr., Eric Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are canceled > the parties are directed to recommend the names of no more than three potential independent receivers to manage the dissolution of the canceled LLCs > that the Hon. Barbara S. Jones (ret.) shall continue to serve as an independent monitor of the Trump Organization until further Court order ETA: this is what’s currently under appeal. So, yeah. The Causes of Action currently pending are > six remaining claims in the lawsuit, including allegations of conspiracy, falsifying business records and insurance fraud. The remedies sought include: > James is seeking $250 million in penalties and a ban on Trump doing business in New York. I _think_ that’s right, and I _think_ that means these two situations are not as entangled as I imagined them to be. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1175 "2023-11-07T19:14:13Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > As I explained it at home…. > > The judge has already decided Trump’s going to get spanked. The trial is just being held to determine what implement to use and how many whacks he deserves. Just don’t consult with Stormy Daniels. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1176 "2023-11-07T19:15:54Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > One point that keeps coming up in my mind about this trial is that since TrumpCO has been found guilty of fraud (pending appeals) and the current trial is about the fines and possibility of being barred from doing business in the state - isn’t the efforts to dodge responsibility a clear sign that no, they should be barred? I mean, if I was in court, and everyone from the top down denied doing any sort of due diligence, I for one would see it being in the state’s interest to bar such businesses. That makes sense to me. When dealing with employee relations issues, if I have an employee who refuses to take any responsibility and is belligerent, I might recommend a more severe sanction and/or termination than I would for someone who showed a little contrition and recognition that they did something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1177 "2023-11-07T19:28:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > IMO, this trial was effectively over as soon as Trump testified that “everybody” within the Trump Organization is responsible for identifying internal fraud. It’s an obviously flip answer, but I don’t know how judges respond to that. One option is to take it literally and at face value, which is _real bad_ for Trump’s kids and a lot of other people. One option is to treat it as a flip answer to a question under oath, which sounds to me like it’s contempt of court. Does the judge have full leeway to decide how to treat it? If the judge treats it as Trump’s sincere and literally true testimony, is there any grounds for appeal? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1178 "2023-11-07T19:34:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If the judge treats it as Trump’s sincere and literally true testimony, is there any grounds for appeal? I would think it would be pretty shaky grounds for appeal to try to say “My client was just playing word games, and really, nothing he said while giving testimony under oath should be taken as literally true.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1179 "2023-11-07T19:48:08Z")
But it came with a rider … ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1180 "2023-11-07T19:54:44Z")
It’s obviously an untrue statement, though, because of course not **everybody** is responsible for identifying fraud. So I’m content calling it perjury. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1181 "2023-11-07T19:56:31Z")
Since we’re mostly on pause awaiting Ivanka … I’d just like to remind people of Engoron’s assessment of Trump’s “Can’t Touch This” Disclaimer: > However, defendants reliance on these “worthless” disclaimers is worthless > the worthless clause does not say what defendants say it says, does not rise to the level of an enforceable disclaimer, and cannot be used to insulate fraud as to facts peculiarly within defendants knowledge, even vis-à-vis sophisticated recipients. As I’m fond of saying, it’s heartening to know that – save for Aileen Cannon – these judges are sober and clear-eyed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=60)