# NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 21, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991 "2022-09-21T16:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 66
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1302 "2023-11-09T11:39:32Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If Ivanka wants to talk about her father’s affection for the golf resort, and her wonderful memories of visiting there as a child…at least that tangent _mentions_ the property. I thought she was trying to suggest Deutsche Bank had bought into all of that and therefore understood and accepted that whatever they were told it was worth reflected its sentimental value, or some such implausibility. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1303 "2023-11-09T11:40:41Z")
“It’s Deutsche Bank’s fault for believing us”, basically. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1304 "2023-11-09T11:55:56Z")
Bankers are famous for their sentimental natures. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1305 "2023-11-09T14:14:32Z")
Well, they are certainly famous for their ability to loan money to hopeless ventures. Hence the need for frequent public bail-outs. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1306 "2023-11-09T14:56:12Z")
I suspect this is how Trumpco works when doing “deals”, by distracting, appealing to emotions and then bullying people into giving them what they want. Not unlike a car salesperson. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1307 "2023-11-09T14:59:37Z")
I didn’t follow news on any of Ivanka’s testimony yesterday, but one talking head I saw this morning said basically, her testimony didn’t particularly advance the prosecutions case, nor did it particularly harm the defense. Sounds like a wash. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1308 "2023-11-09T17:43:16Z")
Trump’s team asking Engoron for a directed verdict. Wow. Who saw THAT coming! /s > **[Trump's lawyers mount long-shot bid to toss NY fraud lawsuit](https://news.yahoo.com/trumps-lawyers-mount-long-shot-151749846.html)** > > (Reuters) -Donald Trump’s lawyers on Thursday asked a New York judge to decide a civil fraud case against the former U.S. president in his favor, a long-shot bid coming midway through a trial that threatens to hobble his real estate empire. The... ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1309 "2023-11-09T17:45:26Z")
So THAT’s why he’s been buttering up the judge so blatantly!! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1310 "2023-11-09T17:50:40Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Trump’s team asking Engoron for a directed verdict. Wow. Who saw THAT coming! /s Yeah, because the summary judgement went so well. How much says Engoron’s response is “Sure. You’re all guilty of the last 6 charges.” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1311 "2023-11-09T17:56:21Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Worst case is: “Here’s $35 million dollars and a nice cushy government job from President Trump. Still have objections?” “In two weeks.” He’s been all about the quid and slow, if ever, delivering the quo pro. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1312 "2023-11-09T18:08:25Z")
**[Monty Python](https://youtu.be/6frs86Szk_0)**: “All right! We’ll call it a draw!” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1313 "2023-11-09T18:13:35Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > I didn’t follow news on any of Ivanka’s testimony yesterday, but one talking head I saw this morning said basically, her testimony didn’t particularly advance the prosecutions case I believe at one point she was asked about an exchange where there was concern about trump accurately reporting his net worth. She had responded by email, saying that they had to essentially inflate his personal value to obtain favorable loan terms (I’m paraphrasing greatly). So her testimony was useful for the prosecution in demonstrating the correlation between trump’s inflated values and defrauding lenders. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1314 "2023-11-09T18:21:06Z")
Obviously Trump doesn’t want his lawyers to call up his family as defense witnesses because whatever they say can and will be used another court of law, a criminal court. That and he doesn’t want his true wealth revealed, he just wants to pay a fine and complain about how unfair he has been treated and not given a chance to tell his side of the story (after he gave up his chance to do so). That and he is likely hoping that the judge will just levy the $250M fine instead of pissing the judge off more and getting a much larger fine. He would rather appeal the smaller amount and negotiate a smaller fine. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1315 "2023-11-09T20:23:34Z")
I will be very very shocked if Engoron’s ruling is not tighter than a gnat’s ass. It will be interesting if they can come up with any sort of basis for appeal that the next court will hear. Of course the next court may feel like they have to hear it considering the circumstances, but you don’t get an appeal just because you don’t like the verdict, right? I think you do in death penalty cases (auto appeal), but not civil. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1316 "2023-11-09T21:24:08Z")
For a successful appeal of a verdict, you have to argue that there were circumstances that prevented a fair trial. i.e. The judge made error on a matter of law, normal procedures were violated, evidentiary issues, ineffective counsel, and others. I’m not sure if ineffective counsel applies in civil cases. The appelate court won’t examine whether the verdict was correct. i.e. They’re not there to try the case again. They’re just there to make sure there was a fair trial. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1317 "2023-11-09T21:36:22Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > Of course the next court may feel like they have to hear it considering the circumstances, but you don’t get an appeal just because you don’t like the verdict, right? I think you do in death penalty cases (auto appeal), but not civil. Generally, every civil or criminal case gets one appeal as a right. Going higher typically requires the higher court to grant a petition or writ. I assume that’s true in New York State, but I don’t know it for a fact. The first level of appeal would be Supreme Court, appellate division. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1318 "2023-11-09T23:45:26Z")
Okay, I’m pretty sure this one is news to me. That Deutsche Bank loan agreement that required that Trump maintain a certain minimum net worth in order to support the personal loan guarantee? The aggregate net worth figure was supposed to be the responsibility of Donald J. Trump alone, but he made an agreement with Don, Jr., Eric, and Ivanka to throw in with their own assets in order to maintain that number. > **[“My jaw almost dropped”: Expert stunned Ivanka offered “proof” Trump was...](https://news.yahoo.com/jaw-almost-dropped-expert-stunned-155446724.html)** > > "He was literally borrowing money from his kids’ piggy banks in order to satisfy Deutsche Bank," says Lisa Rubin. > [@](#): > > MSNBC legal analyst Lisa Rubin said her “jaw almost dropped” during a key part of Ivanka Trump’s testimony in her father and brothers’ New York fraud trial. The tail end of Ivanka Trump’s direct examination by prosecutors revealed that Donald Trump, as part of lending agreements with Deutsche Bank, guaranteed that he could repay the principal, the income and the operating expenses of the relevant asset. “And that’s a big guarantee,” Rubin said. “What we learned today is that behind the scenes, Donald Trump entered into an agreement with each of his three adult children, whereby they pledged assets of their own to help him satisfy the guarantee, which, according to his contract with Deutsche Bank, was supposed to be his and his alone.” > > “He was literally borrowing money from his kids’ piggy banks in order to satisfy Deutsche Bank that he had enough money to borrow from them what he had,” Rubin explained. “And I’m not sure the impact of that struck everyone in the courtroom, but like I said, my jaw almost dropped. I almost dropped my phone on the floor. I was just astonished by the proof that Donald Trump was robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1319 "2023-11-10T00:01:40Z")
But that’s not fraud. That just means he’s a smart businessman, just like not paying taxes. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1320 "2023-11-10T00:03:07Z")
If you think about it, trump has no discernible amount of money. He owns various pieces of real estate, which are worth _something_, but what is that actual value? In practical terms, it’s not an amount we can readily discern, and perhaps not an amount he could ever actually obtain. After all, how many people are actually in the market for a big office building, or a couple of golf resorts? Sure, there’s value there, but the bidders would be just a few select entities, right? All the rest of trump’s “wealth” appears to just be money he’s _borrowed_. So donald really isn’t wealthy at all - he lives an expensive lifestyle, but he does it with other people’s money, based on completely illusory promises that he _could_ get his own money if he had to. It really is astonishing that he could keep this scam going for so long. It seems even more astonishing that he squandered it over a vain need to win elections. He deserves to lose it all. And he’s going to. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1321 "2023-11-10T00:08:18Z")
Okay, I’m not a US lawyer, and all I know about this case and the applicable law is what I’ve read in the papers. But it sure sounds to me like that testimony implicates all four of them in committing civil fraud, at the very least. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=65) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=67)