# NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 21, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991 "2022-09-21T16:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1342 "2023-11-10T17:59:17Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Basically, if the Trumps had accurately valued their assets, the banks would not have granted such favorable terms. Because they did, they lost hundreds of millions of dollars in interest. To elaborate… > [@](#): > > A banking expert testified Wednesday that Donald Trump and his company benefited more than $168 million by obtaining favorable loan terms on transactions where the former president personally guaranteed the loans… > > McCarty calculated the difference in interest payments that Trump might have paid with a commercial real estate loan that would have had a much higher interest rate than the rate he obtained by personally guaranteeing the loans on the basis of financial statements that inflated his net worth. > > He determined the Trump Organization saved on interest for the properties: > > $72,908,308 for the Doral Resort; > > $53,423,209 for the Old Post Office loan; > > $17,443,359 for Trump International Hotel & Tower in Chicago; > > and $24,265,291 for 40 Wall Street. > **[Trump and company saved $168 million in loan interest as a result...](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/01/politics/trump-fraud-168-million/index.html)** > > A banking expert testified Wednesday that Donald Trump and his company benefited more than $168 million by obtaining favorable loan terms on transactions where the former president personally guaranteed the loans. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Trump doesn’t want that, because it’s all a part of his house of cards – owning buildings in which _he claims_ to have significant equity (spoiler: he doesn’t. He lies) in order to leverage that equity into other properties. > > So he gets Don, Jr., Eric, and Ivanka to shift their assets to his balance sheet, if need be, long enough for him to hit that annual minimum net worth figure and keep the bank from moving on him (like a \*\*\*\*\*). Agreed. Did he lie about whether these assets were _his to leverage_, or did he merely pledged that his family would also guarantee his loans? I’m pretty confident it was the former. > [@](#): > > Former federal prosecutor Neama Rahmani told _Newsweek_ that personal guarantees are common with bank loans and that Trump is allowed to ask his children to also guarantee the debt in case of a default. The issue Rahamni sees is what exactly Trump told the lender. > > “Did he tell them that his children’s assets were his? Then that’s fraud and strong evidence for the State,” Rahmani said. “But if there was no misrepresentation, and Trump just wanted his children to have ‘skin in the game,’ then that’s a breach of contract issue at worst.” > **[Ivanka's stunning admission about Trump's behind-the-scenes deal](https://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-trump-testimony-deutsche-bank-deal-1842473)** > > "I'm not sure the impact of that struck everyone in the courtroom, but...my jaw almost dropped," legal analyst Lisa Rubin said. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1343 "2023-11-10T18:10:49Z")
As something a bit more tangible to many of us: what kind of interest rate would you expect to obtain on an automobile loan if your FICO score was 800? 600? 400? Eventually, you’re shopping for cars from the “buy here, pay here” lot, and you’re paying 22% interest. **Credit score|Average APR, new car** Superprime: 781-850…5.07%. Prime: 661-780…6.44%. Nonprime: 601-660…8.99%. Subprime: 501-600…11.72%. Deep subprime: 300-500…14.18%. Just as an example: $25,000 loan, 5-year term. - The best credit will give you a monthly payment of **$472.58/mo** - The worst credit will give you a monthly payment of **$584.04/mo** That’s the game that Trump was playing, and – when your car cost a few hundred million dollars – a point or two in interest makes a big difference in cash flow. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1344 "2023-11-10T19:44:01Z")
I posted this in the wrong thread. Trump’s Motion for a Directed Verdict – restrain your surprise – was denied: > **[Trump loses early-win bid at NY fraud trial after wild arguments invoking...](https://news.yahoo.com/trump-loses-early-win-bid-213602289.html)** > > Trump's most recent effort to stop his civil fraud trial was a failure, but lawyers were certainly colorful in their arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1345 "2023-11-10T20:00:26Z")
And the judge’s reasons for doing so, don’t offer much hope to Team Trump: > [@](#): > > The judge presiding over the non-jury trial, state Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron, did not issue a formal ruling on Trump’s request to stop the trial and declare the former president the winner. > > Instead, the judge repeated what he’s said in earlier rulings — [that there is already plentiful proof of fraud](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-new-york-judge-finds-business-2023-9?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=yahoo.com) — and he told both sides to prepare to resume trial next week. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1346 "2023-11-10T21:02:14Z")
trump team was talking about bringing in something like 120 witnesses. At what point can they say “enough”? He couldn’t bring in like 1000 and bog the whole thing down for a year, could he? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1347 "2023-11-10T21:07:25Z")
Some quick poking around lead to a random quora post that said: > At the same time, courts will not allow what’s called “cumulative” evidence. You don’t get to prove the same fact over and over. What constitutes “cumulative” is up to the discretion of the court. Two witnesses testifying to the same thing is surely going to be seen as corroboration. On the other hand, twenty witnesses testifying to the same thing will likely be seen as time-wasting overkill. And from that, I found this: > **[47 CFR § 1.352 - Cumulative evidence.](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/1.352)** > § 1.352 Cumulative evidence. > > The introduction of cumulative evidence shall be avoided, and the number of witnesses that may be heard in behalf of a party on any issue may be limited. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1348 "2023-11-10T21:07:46Z")
Top number is 127 potential witnesses. They can’t add to the list now. The judge has allowed them to call as many of them as they like - but he warned that if they go off topic, he’ll shut them down. Essentially, there is little point to these witnesses. This is a case about documents. Trump signed documents saying he had X amount of money, and his buildings were worth Y. The prosecution has provided ample evidence that neither of these were true, and the decision makers in the Trump org - Trump and his children - were well aware that these were false figures. It’s open and shut, really, no matter what these variety of witnesses say. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1349 "2023-11-10T21:14:51Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > to determine the damages done to the banks as a result of accepting the Trump family’s fraudulent valuations as a basis to grant favorable loans to them There is no requirement to show that anyone was actually harmed under the statute ( New York Executive Law § 63 (12) ) ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1350 "2023-11-10T21:31:20Z")
The thing about cumulative evidence can best be explained by an “A Few Good Men” quote: > The defense is willing to concede that all 22 witnesses will testify substantially as Corporal Hammaker did if the government is willing to concede that none of them were in Dawson and Downey’s room at 16:20 on September 6. It wouldn’t surprise me to see something like that come up, particularly if a couple dozen of Trump’s witnesses are going to say there’s “variability in appraisals,” or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1351 "2023-11-10T22:14:38Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > All the rest of trump’s “wealth” appears to just be money he’s _borrowed_. So donald really isn’t wealthy at all - he lives an expensive lifestyle, but he does it with other people’s money To be completely fair, I suspect that Individual-ONE is not particularly unusual in this respect. To me, this sounds like the status of uber-wealthy people in general and SOP for the finance industry overall. Static wealth is essentially useless: the economy lives on capital flux. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1352 "2023-11-10T22:22:40Z")
Wouldn’t it be funny if Trump’s lawyers call up defense witnesses who end up saying “I don’t recall.” “Oh, I don’t recall.” “Fifth!” ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1353 "2023-11-10T22:27:02Z")
All these defense witnesses will take the stand wondering of what use to them trump will be after everything is seized. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1354 "2023-11-10T22:33:22Z")
Another Trump real estate empire bowling pin is wobbling: > **[Trump’s 40 Wall St. Loan Transferred to Special Servicer](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-40-wall-st-tower-211505299.html)** > > (Bloomberg) -- The mortgage on former President Donald Trump’s Manhattan tower at 40 Wall St. has been transferred to a special servicer.Most Read from BloombergBiden Has Wiped Away $127 Billion in Student Loan DebtAn Opioid-Like Drink Is... > [@](#): > > The mortgage on former President Donald Trump’s Manhattan tower at 40 Wall St. has been transferred to a special servicer. > > The Financial District building has been on watchlist status since February as costs and vacancies increased. The tower’s occupancy rate dropped to 77% as of June 30 from 98% when the loan originated in 2015. My quotes from Letitia James’s evidence summary, but relevant to this particular property: > [@](#): > > **40 Wall Street, New York, NY** > The Trump Organization owns a ground lease at 40 Wall Street, meaning it holds a leasehold interest in the land and buildings on the land, but pays rent to the owner. The Trump Organization received a bank-ordered appraisal for the commercial property at 40 Wall Street that calculated a value for the property of $220 million as of November 1, 2012. Yet in the statement that year and the next year (2013), 40 Wall Street was valued at $527 million and $530 million — more than twice the value calculated by the independent, professional appraisers. Even more egregiously, those increased valuations were attributed to information obtained from the same professional appraiser who valued the building at just over $200 million. > > In 2015, the Trump Organization replaced an existing Capital One loan on the building with a loan from Ladder Capital Finance (working with Mr. Weisselberg’s son, a director there). The Ladder loan was approved based in part on an inflated appraisal prepared by Cushman & Wakefield. Ultimately, the final appraisal for the loan came to a valuation of $540 million through a number of unreasonable adjustments, including reducing costs and changing the assumptions concerning the ground lease. Not even this increase was enough for Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization. The 2015 statement, which was compiled in June of that year, valued the building at $735.4 million — over 35% higher than the already inflated $540 million Cushman appraisal of that same date, which the Trump Organization had in hand. Remember the real estate/financial services meltdown from around 2008? Trump’s story is essentially a microcosm of the exact same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1355 "2023-11-11T00:26:55Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Wouldn’t it be funny if Trump’s lawyers call up defense witnesses who end up saying “I don’t recall.” “Oh, I don’t recall.” “Fifth!” It does make me wonder whether those defense witnesses are going to say under oath what Trump’s team hopes they’ll say. Might some of them truthfully say, “We wouldn’t have made that loan under those terms had Trump given us different information about the worth of his properties?” ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1356 "2023-11-11T05:08:19Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Top number is 127 potential witnesses. They can’t add to the list now. > > The judge has allowed them to call as many of them as they like - but he warned that if they go off topic, he’ll shut them down. > > Essentially, there is little point to these witnesses… Is this list of defense witnesses publicly available yet? Or will it even be made available to the public prior to them being called to testify? Very curious what they are supposed to be “experts” in that DJT and his lawyers imagine will help them. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1357 "2023-11-11T05:10:41Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Might some of them truthfully say, “We wouldn’t have made that loan under those terms had Trump given us different information about the worth of his properties?” The way the statute is written, I’m not sure it would even be relevant as a defense it a lender said that _would_ still have made the loan. Perhaps it makes a difference to the size of the financial penalty imposed on Trump, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1358 "2023-11-11T13:27:33Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Very curious what they are supposed to be “experts” in that DJT and his lawyers imagine will help them. They’ll be experts on how working in Trumpco was the biggliest and most professional job opprtunity they had after graduating from Trump U, where they learned all about butt-snorkeling to the big guy. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1359 "2023-11-11T17:08:17Z")
Yeah, I realize they will be spreading a bunch of BS, I’m more interested in knowing if this list is public yet. I can’t find any information on who these witnesses are going to be. Maybe it will be release soon, like in two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1360 "2023-11-11T17:15:02Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The way the statute is written, I’m not sure it would even be relevant as a defense it a lender said that _would_ still have made the loan. Perhaps it makes a difference to the size of the financial penalty imposed on Trump, I’m not sure. That makes sense to me. At this point, the DA has already leaped into the air and we’re just waiting to see how hard they land on Trump, Co. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1361 "2023-11-11T17:47:20Z")
The experts, at least some of them, will likely be real estate appraisers and bank lending officers who’ll testify that Trump’s values were spot on, heck, way undervalued! And then they’ll have to justify that under cross-examination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=67) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=69)