# NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} \[9/21/2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 21, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991 "2022-09-21T16:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1722 "2024-01-10T18:19:24Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Him blathering in front of the judge wouldn’t have the same effect. Well, it cuts out the middleperson when His Honor strikes TFG’s inappropriate rant and directs to disregard. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1723 "2024-01-10T18:23:30Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I know that it has been decided that he can’t speak but it should be noted that there isn’t a jury in this trial. But this isn’t the deciding factor. The judge is simply following the usual protocol. The exception would be to permit Trump to make a closing argument. And why should the judge make an exception for Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1724 "2024-01-10T18:23:45Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Judge Engoron has ruled that Trump will not be allowed to speak in closing arguments. > > \< chortle \> > In a letter to attorneys for Trump and the New York attorney general just after noon Wednesday, the judge said that Trump hasn’t agreed to conditions he set should the former president wish to give a statement. > > “Not having heard from you by the third extended deadline (noon today), I assume that Mr. Trump will not agree to the reasonable, lawful limits I have imposed as a precondition to giving a closing statement above and beyond those given by his attorneys, and that, therefore, he will not be speaking in court tomorrow,” Engoron wrote. I am assuming that one of the conditions the judge was requiring was that Trump would be sworn in under oath, and perhaps that the prosecution would be allowed to ask Trump questions under oath. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1725 "2024-01-10T18:27:20Z")
I think the judge wanted to say that he was open to allowing Trump to speak with certain conditions imposed. If Trump was unwilling to meet those conditions, oh, well. I don’t know that having Trump sworn in would have been one of those conditions. More likely that he couldn’t make statements that went beyond what the evidence showed. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1726 "2024-01-10T18:28:25Z")
the judge set down limits for trump speaking and trump didn’t like it. there was a noon deadline that team trump tried to delay due to death of mother in law. judge did not move deadline, team trump did not respond. judge ruled that trump can not speak. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1727 "2024-01-10T18:29:29Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > But this isn’t the deciding factor. The judge is simply following the usual protocol. The exception would be to permit Trump to make a closing argument. And why should the judge make an exception for Trump? Agreed but if for some reason it was allowed, it wouldn’t have nearly the effect to a battle hardened judge as it would to twelve randoms. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1728 "2024-01-10T18:30:46Z")
I still think the whole preposterous circus is a fund-raising gambit. Trump’s target audience will never know the specific details that went into Judge Engoron’s ruling to deny Trump’s request to speak. All they will ever hear is, “The Deep State™ is silencing Trump!!” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1729 "2024-01-10T18:37:34Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Judge Engoron should be played by John Goodman If Goodman has kept his old suits, surely he should wear a fat suit, smear some shit on his ass and play Trump. I’m thinking Al Pacino for Engoron, there’s going to be a lot of scope for expressing the emotion “amazement at antics” in the role. For maximum meltdown, a Black actress playing Alina Habba? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1730 "2024-01-10T18:39:56Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I think the judge wanted to say that he was open to allowing Trump to speak with certain conditions imposed. If Trump was unwilling to meet those conditions, oh, well. > > I don’t know that having Trump sworn in would have been one of those conditions. More likely that he couldn’t make statements that went beyond what the evidence showed. Exactly correct. More correctly, he is incapable of making statements beyond what the evidence showed. [https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4400547-trump-ny-fraud-trial-judge-reverses-closing-argument/](https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4400547-trump-ny-fraud-trial-judge-reverses-closing-argument/) From the article > Engoron replied that he would allow Trump to make a closing argument if he promised on the record to “limit his subjects” to what is permissible in a lawyer’s closing argument. > "He may not seek to introduce new evidence. He may not ‘testify.’ He may not comment on irrelevant matters,” Engoron wrote in the email. “In particular, and without limitation, he may not deliver a campaign speech, and he may not impugn myself, my staff, plaintiff, plaintiff’s staff, or the New York State Court System, none of which is relevant to this case, and all of which, except commenting on my staff, can be done, and is being done, in other forums.” > Engoron continued that if Trump violated any rules, he would not hesitate to “cut him off in mid-sentence and admonish him” or end his closing argument, barring him from making future statements in the courtroom. LOL ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1731 "2024-01-10T18:51:43Z")
Closing arguments are tomorrow. Each side gets 2.5 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1732 "2024-01-10T19:13:21Z")
Good on Engoron. The MAGA faithful were never going to spin this as anything other than a vindictive travesty. Just follow the law, make reasonable accommodations, but no need to play by Trump’s rules. Engoron’s the boss, not the imbecilic defendant. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1733 "2024-01-10T19:14:17Z")
You may very well have left yourself liable for Definition of Character, there. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1734 "2024-01-10T19:16:17Z")
It’s a fair cop. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1735 "2024-01-10T19:41:59Z")
Here is the email chain. It has to be read from the last page to the first to go in proper sequential order. What the fuck is up with Trump’s lawyer Kise and their effected use of only lower case letters? [https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=\_PLUS\_cASZsP0hNiBQOHYbw\_PLUS\_TPQ==&system=prod](https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=_PLUS_cASZsP0hNiBQOHYbw_PLUS_TPQ==&system=prod) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1736 "2024-01-10T19:49:39Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > So in theory, you’re correct, a defendant could do it as you describe. In fact it turns out that my assumption that a defendant could be a part of their own legal team was wrong. If you read the email exchange linked in the preceding post, the immediate OAG response opposing Trump speaking cites both NY civil law and criminal precedent where 6A applies that there is no automatic right to “hybrid” representation. The right to counsel and the right to represent yourself have not been taken to imply a simultaneous right to both. (Although of course a judge could allow it.) ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1737 "2024-01-10T20:02:14Z")
> [@simster](#): > > What can Donald Trump testify to that his lawyers haven’t already presented? Victim statement ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1738 "2024-01-10T20:04:17Z")
hahahahahahahhahahaha! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1739 "2024-01-10T20:09:25Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > What the fuck is up with Trump’s lawyer Kise and their effected use of only lower case letters? It’s bizarre. The small caps and casual phrasing and _non sequiturs_ seem like calculated disrespect in such a formal professional context. Another part of the concerted campaign to antagonize and try to make Engoron overreact for appeal? I wonder if Kise always writes formal emails like this. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1740 "2024-01-10T20:13:47Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Victim statement This joke recalls the weird situation in the NRA case where the NRA are one of the defendants, but if the AG prevails the judgment will require restitution by LaPierre _to_ the NRA. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991/1741 "2024-01-10T20:14:38Z")
It must be his schtick. I tried googling stuff like “Chirs Kise lower case letters” but the name of a lawyer and the word “case” or “lower” which goes with lower court made it difficult. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-letitia-james-drops-the-civil-hammer-on-trump-family-9-21-2022/971991.md?page=88)