# NY AG sues NRA alleging massive fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422 "2020-08-06T15:55:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/202 "2020-08-19T21:54:38Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > No, you are making my point for me, and for the New York attorney general. Promoting amateur marksmanship competitions, including Olympic and other international competitions, is one of the stated goals and purposes of the NRA. It’s in the bylaws and certificate of incorporation; it’s one of the reasons that people have been donating to the NRA for decades. It’s one of the purposes that the current NRA administration have a legal and fiduciary obligation to work on, until and unless the membership votes to change the purposes. Again, You don’t need the NRA to teach you to shoot. Most of their money is spent on lobbying and most or all of that is solicited funds. The people who are members of the NRA know what the organization represents. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/203 "2020-08-19T22:13:42Z")
What the organization represents is enriching the top officers of the organization. Do the members know that? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/204 "2020-08-19T22:17:12Z")
No, it’s a closely guarded secret known only to you and the NY AG. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/205 "2020-08-20T01:07:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The relevance is the ability to carry out everything you listed without unnecessary government intervention. Anyone can go down to a shooting range, take a brief safety course and be shooting in 30 minutes. If they are have enough land they can shoot in their backyard. Other countries that don’t have the Second Amendment nevertheless manage to have shooting sports, hunter education, etc.; what do you think is so unique about the US that we _CANNOT_ have shooting sports without the Second Amendment? > [@Magiver](#): > > Again, You don’t need the NRA to teach you to shoot. Most of their money is spent on lobbying and most or all of that is solicited funds. The NRA, however, was founded to teach people to shoot. That was the original inspiration and reason for its existence, and its primary purpose for most of its history. That means endowed funds and assets built up over the last century were **NOT** necessarily given for lobbying. Even today, there seems to be a great gulf between the NRA membership and leadership. For example, polls consistently show a solid majority of NRA members support universal background checks, including for sales between private parties. When was the last time you heard the NRA itself advocate for that? > [@Magiver](#): > > The people who are members of the NRA know what the organization represents. Well, by your own admission, much of the membership doesn’t know about the organization’s finances and how their membership monies are being used, so on what basis do you conclude that they know much about what the organization is lobbying for? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/206 "2020-08-20T02:52:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You don’t need the NRA to teach you to shoot. Yet, that is one of their objectives. You also don’t need them to fight against gun control legislation. But that is another one of their objectives. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/207 "2020-08-20T03:15:04Z")
If you believe in the free market then you’ve got to believe that the hoped-for demise of the NRA will create a vacuum that would be filled be a pro-gun/pro-gun rights organization which would hopefully be honest and not serve as either a slush fund for its leaders or a conduit for money to flow from who-knows-where (oh, let’s guess) to the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/208 "2020-08-20T04:26:49Z")
I am fast becoming a fan of the Legal Eagle channel on YouTube. He is an attorney who does a pretty good job of laying out the legal aspects of various issues. I get a sense he is liberal(ish) but he does seem to try to lay out the case for and against fairly (to my eye…I might be wrong). Reminds me of some of the legal eagles who used to post on this board. Here is his take on the NRA case: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Kw1evJgGwtw/maxresdefault.jpg "Is the NRA Being Sued Out of Existence? | LegalEagle’s Real Law Review") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw1evJgGwtw) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/209 "2020-08-20T05:14:48Z")
I thought I had read here that the NRA is mostly funded by the industry, and mostly represents the interests of the industry? Rights of ‘gun owners’ being a means to that end? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/210 "2020-08-20T05:16:47Z")
This is not true. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/211 "2020-08-20T05:18:39Z")
I’ve heard that, too, but this CNN article from 2015 notes that, while gun manufacturers do make significant donations to the NRA, they’re legally forbidden from funding the NRA’s Political Victory Fund (a PAC, or political action committee, which can make donations to political candidates and run ads during elections) – the PAC is apparently funded solely by individual donors. However, the NRA also has a lobbying arm, the NRA Institute for Legal Action, and _that_ group can and does receive donations from manufacturers. > **[The money powering the NRA](https://money.cnn.com/news/cnnmoney-investigates/nra-funding-donors/index.html)** > > From a small-town pharmacist to a commercial pilot, it's not just gunmakers that are funding the NRA’s political battles. Thousands of everyday people are donating too – and their donations are surging. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/212 "2020-08-20T06:31:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am fast becoming a fan of the Legal Eagle channel on YouTube. He is an attorney who does a pretty good job of laying out the legal aspects of various issues. I get a sense he is liberal(ish) but he does seem to try to lay out the case for and against fairly (to my eye…I might be wrong). Reminds me of some of the legal eagles who used to post on this board. Aye; he’s great. Excellent channel. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/213 "2020-08-20T13:23:23Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Other countries that don’t have the Second Amendment nevertheless manage to have shooting sports, hunter education, etc.; what do you think is so unique about the US that we _CANNOT_ have shooting sports without the Second Amendment? You’re creating a strawman argument. The 2nd amendment guarantees the right of gun ownership in the United States. It goes beyond sport shooting and hunting. What other countries do or do not is irrelevant to this topic. You are apparently arguing that the 2nd Amendment is unnecessary. > [@slash2k](#): > > The NRA, however, was founded to teach people to shoot. That was the original inspiration and reason for its existence, and its primary purpose for most of its history. That means endowed funds and assets built up over the last century were **NOT** necessarily given for lobbying. Even today, there seems to be a great gulf between the NRA membership and leadership. For example, polls consistently show a solid majority of NRA members support universal background checks, including for sales between private parties. When was the last time you heard the NRA itself advocate for that? The people who are members of the NRA know it represents the largest political support of the 2nd Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/214 "2020-08-20T14:27:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You are apparently arguing that the 2nd Amendment is unnecessary. It is unnecessary for four of their five objectives. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/215 "2020-08-20T14:52:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re creating a strawman argument. The 2nd amendment guarantees the right of gun ownership in the United States. It goes beyond sport shooting and hunting. What other countries do or do not is irrelevant to this topic. You are apparently arguing that the 2nd Amendment is unnecessary. You’ve lost track of your original argument entirely. You argued that shooting sports and hunter education and marksmanship training was Second Amendment oriented and that its purpose (singular) was to promote and lobby for Second Amendment issues. The NRA’s own charter says you are wrong. The NRA has multiple purposes, most of which do not involve Second Amendment advocacy. The example of other countries is not irrelevant, because those other countries show it is possible to foster the shooting sports and have hunter education and marksmanship training even in the absence of a particular constitutional amendment. > [@Magiver](#): > > The people who are members of the NRA know it represents the largest political support of the 2nd Amendment. Now THIS is a strawman argument. The NRA has (or, rather, had) substantial endowed funds and assets built up over the decades. The NRA’s charitable assets included funds donated to the organization for ALL of its purposes, not just legislative advocacy. (Remember, the institutional funds at issue may well include bequests made to the NRA before the NRA even had any legislative advocacy to fund.) The NRA leadership had/has a fiduciary duty as trustees of those charitable assets to use them for the purposes (plural) for which the NRA was chartered and for which the funds were donated. Now, do you honestly believe that the NRA membership at large is aware of (much less approves of) the fact that their monies, the monies you think they gave for Second Amendment advocacy, was instead allegedly used to pay some expenses for Wayne LaPierre’s assistant’s son’s wedding? How did that wedding advance the cause of gun rights in the US? How about private flights from Orlando to Washington DC that detoured via North Platte, Nebraska, to pick up or drop of LaPierre’s niece and her family? (The NRA’s own current treasurer has testified that he did not know of any NRA business purpose in chartered flights to North Platte, but the membership is alleged to have paid for a number of them. I’m sure LaPierre’s grandniece [who as of 2017 still required a babysitter] enjoyed flying with her great-uncle, but I look forward to your explanation of why that’s an appropriate use of hundreds of thousands of dollars in charitable assets.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/216 "2020-08-20T17:14:26Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > You’ve lost track of your original argument entirely. You argued that shooting sports and hunter education and marksmanship training was Second Amendment oriented and that its purpose (singular) was to promote and lobby for Second Amendment issues I’ve posted the money taken in from members and the money spent on lobbying. It’s clear that the NRA focuses on 2nd Amendment issues. For gun owners this is the main lobbyist to support. And yes, the membership is aware of what is going on right now. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/217 "2020-08-20T17:29:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve posted the money taken in from members and the money spent on lobbying. It’s clear that the NRA focuses on 2nd Amendment issues. For gun owners this is the main lobbyist to support. And yes, the membership is aware of what is going on right now. The NRA’s own foundational documents list _FIVE_ different purposes, only one of which is legislative lobbying on the Second Amendment. Unless and until the membership votes to change those documents, the NRA leadership has a legal obligation to spend monies and efforts on all five. That’s what being a trustee of charitable assets means: fiduciary obligations enforceable by law. Also, does the membership approve of LaPierre and company looting the charitable assets to enrich themselves, and would they even be aware of it absent the New York AG’s office? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/218 "2020-08-20T17:38:10Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It is unnecessary for four of their five objectives. And yet people still join. What you continually fail to understand is that gun owners in the US who want the freedoms secured by the 2nd Amendment will naturally gravitate to the NRA because it’s by far the major lobbying group dedicated to those freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/219 "2020-08-20T17:47:14Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The NRA’s own foundational documents list _FIVE_ different purposes, only one of which is legislative lobbying on the Second Amendment. Unless and until the membership votes to change those documents, the NRA leadership has a legal obligation to spend monies and efforts on all five. That’s what being a trustee of charitable assets means: fiduciary obligations enforceable by law. [Here is their mission statement:](https://www.guidestar.org/profile/53-0116130) Note the 1st one: 1. To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, especially with reference to the inalienable right of the individual American citizen guaranteed by such Constitution to acquire, possess, collect, exhibit, transport, carry, transfer ownership of, and enjoy the right to use arms, in order that the people may always be in a position to exercise their legitimate individual rights of self-preservation and defense of family, person, and property, as well as to serve effectively in the appropriate militia for the common defense of the Republic and the individual liberty of its citizens; ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/220 "2020-08-20T17:52:00Z")
I already quoted their mission statement in this thread. The Second Amendment is one part of one of the five purposes. What is your point in quoting it back to me? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/221 "2020-08-20T17:55:01Z")
Given how simply and objectively wrong Magiver is, and how he has persisted in not even realizing the basis of his wrongitude, and how obvious it is to everyone else in the thread that he’s objectively incorrect, I’m not sure what’s accomplished by continuing to try to explain it to him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422.md?page=12)