# NY AG sues NRA alleging massive fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422 "2020-08-06T15:55:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2020, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/262 "2020-08-25T06:52:46Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > No, we got on the “five objectives” business because several posters, notably Magiver, kept insisting that their only purpose was defending the Second Amendment, I never said it was their only purpose. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2020, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/263 "2020-08-25T08:26:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@slash2k](#): > > > > No, we got on the “five objectives” business because several posters, notably Magiver, kept insisting that their only purpose was defending the Second Amendment, > > I never said it was their only purpose. But you argued the others required that one. And didn’t notice what I’ve seen gun rights people say in every discussion about this case (including the comments on LeagalEagle’s video). The NRA has apparently avoided 2nd Amendment cases they feel they should have taken. It’s why lots of 2nd Amendment types no longer support the NRA. They are the ones saying the NRA only cares to help gun manufacturers, not the gun control side. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2020, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/264 "2020-08-25T11:35:11Z")
What’s funny about this whole thing is that my knee-jerk reaction was that the NY AG’s actions are excessive; i.e., I’m skeptical that the organization is irreparable (my personal feelings about the NRA aside.) But bad arguments are bad arguments, and actual do more to harm the anti-AG “side” than help it. This is a prime example for the “Stop Helping” thread, wherever that ended up. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/265 "2020-08-31T19:47:17Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > If, later today, the N.Y. AG or the SDNY filed fraud charges against the following groups, would you feel it was a politically motivated move to hurt Trump? I think the NYAG needs to investigate these charges very thoroughly; expect charges to come out November 4th. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/266 "2020-09-03T20:54:33Z")
Interesting follow-up: Former NRA chief of staff releases a book about the misdeeds there, saying ‘Gun owners across America should be horrified by what I saw inside of the NRA.’ He’s actually named in the lawsuit, and if he’s writing a tell-all book he’s probably not going to be afraid to point out where bodies are buried. > **[Ex NRA exec says he was 'horrified' by what he saw in leadership](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8695417/Ex-NRA-insider-says-horrified-saw-alleges-misconduct.html)** > > Josh Powell has been accused along with Wayne LaPierre, the association's president, of allegedly misusing funds from donors to support their lavish lifestyles. > **[Former top NRA official skewers the gun group in upcoming book for 'appealing...](https://www.businessinsider.com/joshua-powell-nra-book-wayne-lapierre-2020-9)** > > The book says NRA chief Wayne LaPierre "couldn't run an organization on a fiscally sound basis to save his life" and appeals to "the extreme fringe." ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2020, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/267 "2020-09-04T05:27:50Z")
> **[Get Ready for a Feeding Frenzy Over the NRA’s Corpse](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/nra-lawsuit-gun-rights-movement-successor.html)** > > The lawsuit seeking to dissolve the NRA will also have to anoint its successor. _James’ effort to dissolve the NRA is unprecedented, says Michael West, the senior attorney at the New York Council of Nonprofits, but then again, so is the scale of corruption detailed in the lawsuit. When James’ office began its investigation of the NRA more than a year ago, West doubted the attorney general would actually try to dissolve the group, [telling me](https://www.thetrace.org/2019/05/heres-what-investigations-into-the-nras-nonprofit-status-could-mean/) in May 2019, “The more you go for a homerun, the likelier it’s gonna be a swing and a miss.”_ _West could not think of a nonprofit of comparable size or scope that New York or any other state has shut down as James seeks to do with the NRA. According to New York state nonprofit law, in the event of dissolution, the courts have to disburse those assets to another nonprofit that shares the same values. The only recent similar case is the dissolution of the Trump Foundation, but that was on a far smaller scale, involving a much simpler nonprofit that just doled out cash without any kind of actual operations. It was easy for courts to release the remaining Trump money to uncontroversial charities like the United Way._ _The National Rifle Association, by contrast, has a clearly defined mission, actually does stuff, and has real assets. Aside from any money the group may have left, the NRA also has less tangible but arguably more valuable assets: namely, its branding and membership rolls. The NRA’s uniquely close relationship with its grassroots and thus its political power rests on these two pillars._ ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2020, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/268 "2020-09-04T11:28:12Z")
The ACLU’s legal director wrote an opinion piece in the WSJ a week or so back (soft paywall): [https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nra-has-a-right-to-exist-11598457143](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nra-has-a-right-to-exist-11598457143) > [Dissolution] has historically been reserved for organizations that are essentially false fronts for personal gain. > […] > Dissolution is proper only where a corporation is so subsumed by waste, misuse or fraud that it no longer fulfills a charitable purpose. There is simply no precedent for such extreme action against an organization like the NRA, which, whether you like it or not, has been serving charitable purposes very effectively (indeed, many of its opponents would say, too effectively) for a century and a half. I don’t know if that’s necessarily compelling but at least he didn’t make up anything to support it AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/269 "2020-09-04T18:38:50Z")
If the NY AG really wanted to make some conservative heads explode, she could turn their assets over to Redneck Revolt > **[Redneck Revolt: the armed leftwing group that wants to stamp out fascism](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/11/redneck-revolt-guns-anti-racism-fascism-far-left)** > > There are several commonalities between the far left and the far right – including a disdain for liberals – but the biggest divide is on the topic of intolerance ---
**Author:** ![razordance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@razordance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/razordance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/270 "2020-09-11T08:35:59Z")
Politically motivated prosecution is not always a bad thing. We’ll be seeing a great deal of it against Trump after he leaves office, and that’s a GOOD thing. ---
**Author:** ![Skunkdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c2a13f/32.png) [@Skunkdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skunkdog)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/271 "2020-09-11T19:46:59Z")
Does the NRA have that much in assets? I seem to recall when the beef between Ollie North and Wayne LaPierre was at its most heated and they were caught in the Russian influence scandal that actual assets were scant and that the NRA was almost insolvent. I’m not sure how true this was at the time or just an attempt to boost recruitment, but it sounded like their political action arm had very little to work with. ---
**Author:** ![razordance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@razordance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/razordance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/272 "2020-09-11T19:56:06Z")
As I understand it, the amount the NRA gives in election campaign contributions is trivial compared to what corporations and business groups give. What makes the NRA feared in Washington is, rather, its power to mobilize single-issue voters – the kind who will vote against a gun-control candidate even if they agree with him about everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/273 "2020-09-11T20:55:42Z")
> [@Skunkdog](#): > > Does the NRA have that much in assets? A couple tens of millions IIRC, compared to the hundreds of million in revenue and outlays. They’re not sitting on a huge endowment or anything. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/274 "2020-09-12T01:32:02Z")
As was mentioned, what probably is the biggest asset is the intellectual property of the NRA. Some lucky group is going to be able to say that they are the parent organization of it when this is all said and done. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/275 "2020-09-12T01:54:15Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > They’re not sitting on a huge endowment or anything. But if they did they could post to that recent thread about accidentally sitting on something. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/276 "2020-11-28T03:23:18Z")
Interesting development: > **[NRA reports alleged misspending by current and former executives to IRS](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/nra-irs-disclosure-990/2020/11/25/50521108-2d34-11eb-9c71-ccf2c0b8d571_story.html)** > > The latest tax return shows the nonprofit gun rights organization in the red for the fourth year in a row. Paywalled, but here’s the first few paragraphs: > [@](#): > > After years of denying allegations of lax financial oversight, the National Rifle Association has made a stunning declaration in a new tax filing: Current and former executives used the nonprofit group’s money for personal benefit and enrichment. > > The NRA said in the filing that it continues to review the alleged abuse of funds, as the tax-exempt organization curtails services and runs up multimillion-dollar legal bills. The assertion of impropriety comes four months after the attorney general of New York state filed a lawsuit accusing NRA chief executive Wayne LaPierre and other top executives of using NRA funds for decades to provide [inflated salaries and expense accounts](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/nra-lapierre-ny-attorney-general/2020/08/06/8e389794-d794-11ea-930e-d88518c57dcc_story.html?itid=lk_inline_manual_3). > > The tax return, which The Washington Post obtained from the organization, says the NRA “became aware during 2019 of a significant diversion of its assets.” The 2019 filing states that LaPierre and five former executives received “excess benefits,” a term the IRS uses to describe executives’ enriching themselves at the expense of a nonprofit entity. > > The disclosures in the tax return suggest that the organization is standing by its 71-year-old chief executive while continuing to pursue former executives of the group. The filing says that LaPierre “corrected” his financial lapses with a repayment and contends that former executives “improperly” used NRA funds or charged the nonprofit for expenses that were “not appropriate.” My initial thought is that one of the best defences to the attempt by the NY AG to dissolve them is to show that they are in fact exercising good stewardship of their funds. Maybe this is an attempt to show that they’re taking the allegations seriously, so shouldn’t be dissovled? but then the organization appears to be standing by LaPieree, and going after Ollie North, who sounds like he was something of a whistleblower. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/277 "2020-11-28T03:39:15Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > My initial thought is that one of the best defences to the attempt by the NY AG to dissolve them is to show that they are in fact exercising good stewardship of their funds. Maybe this is an attempt to show that they’re taking the allegations seriously, so shouldn’t be dissovled? They wont be dissolved. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/278 "2020-11-28T03:42:15Z")
I’m sceptical of that myself, it’s such a drastic remedy. It seems to be reserved for non-profits that are completely out of control. Show a modicum of good governance, and you should be able to defeat the challenge: “We recognise mistakes were made, and we’re taking steps, but it will take a while, and we ask for patience from our donors and members, etc., etc., etc.” I just wonder if this IRS filing may be a tactic along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/279 "2020-11-28T03:54:54Z")
I saw that article in the Washington Post and thought of this topic. I agree that it’s unlikely to end in the dissolution of the NRA but it shows that there was something valid in the actions of the NYS AG. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/280 "2020-11-28T06:13:50Z")
Oh, certainly. There is a lot of smoke, and bad practices, but the NRA wont be dissolved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422.md?page=13)