# NY AG sues NRA alleging massive fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422 "2020-08-06T15:55:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2020, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/141 "2020-08-10T03:40:10Z")
Among other things, civil charges are much easier to prove and therefore consume less public taxpayer funded resources. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2020, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/142 "2020-08-10T06:56:18Z")
And the AG specifically said that criminal charges were possible. I suspect they have lots of discovery to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/143 "2020-08-10T13:10:59Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > I just made a post on how the NRA itself is not a charity although it is a non-profit - there are many different classifications of non-profits. Got it, thanks; you were very clear (twice now!) That’s all failure-to-read on my end. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/144 "2020-08-10T16:57:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But maybe you are right and she’s got nothing, went after one of the most powerful organizations in the country with nothing more than an agenda to make a few headlines. I never said or implied that, by any fair reading of my posts. I’ve never commented on the substance of the complaint, other than the utterly innocuous observation that I do not know whether those allegations are true or not. In fact, my very first post acknowledges that a political motivation does not necessarily preclude a meritorious case. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/145 "2020-08-10T18:18:03Z")
Maybe the lack of clarity is that when you say “Obviously politically motivated,” it sounds like you’re saying that’s the main motivation for the case. If you’re saying that for some definitions of “political,” (e.g., when an elected official seeks to accomplish a goal they spoke about in their election campaign) a political motivation is part of the motivation for the case, that’s something I’m sure everyone would concede; it’s so trivially true that it barely merits mention. But my first reading of what you wrote is that it’s obvious that the primary motive of pursuing this case is to gain political advantage for future elections, and that a genuine desire to pursue justice according to the law was not the primary motivation. If that’s not what you meant, I read what you wrote incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/146 "2020-08-14T00:09:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Maybe the lack of clarity is that when you say “Obviously politically motivated,” it sounds like you’re saying that’s the main motivation for the case. The NRA is an organization of individuals intent on preserving their 2nd amendment rights. If some of the operating officers are mismanaging the money then that’s the concern of the members. If any laws are broken it falls on the organization to make restitution. There is no premise for destroying the organization and that makes it politically motivated. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/147 "2020-08-14T00:47:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no premise for destroying the organization and that makes it politically motivated. What an astonishing claim. Do you have the legal argument to back that up? Because I believe the NY Attorney General is unlikely to file an action for which there’s no legal support. But perhaps you’re correct; I anxiously await the evidence that leads you to make such a strong claim. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/148 "2020-08-14T00:52:06Z")
I expect in the end there will be a compromise, in which LaPierre and his supporters leave the leadership and someone else steps in and reorganizes it. That seems far more likely than shutting down the entire group. Perhaps the group returns to its roots, of teaching shooting sports and de-emphasizes the whole political lobbying part. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/149 "2020-08-14T01:41:35Z")
A “compromise” in which the group abandons the political position it has held [for over 40 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_at_Cincinnati) wouldn’t do much to quiet claims that the NY Attorney General’s case is politically motivated. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/150 "2020-08-14T01:43:43Z")
Does it matter if the case is politically motivated if at the same time, it’s valid? Because it does appear that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/151 "2020-08-14T01:55:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Does it matter if the case is politically motivated if at the same time, it’s valid? It certainly matters if you want to avoid political consequences. If you want to set the precedent that if an attorney general can find something on a political group he or she disagrees with–I mean, genuinely find something–then it’s OK for that official to sue that group, not just to rectify its problems, but also to force that group to change its political positions, then sure–go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/152 "2020-08-14T01:56:25Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I expect in the end there will be a compromise, in which LaPierre and his supporters leave the leadership and someone else steps in and reorganizes it. That seems far more likely than shutting down the entire group. Perhaps the group returns to its roots, of teaching shooting sports and de-emphasizes the whole political lobbying part. A compromise like this seems possible–but I hope that criminal charges are pursued as ardently as they’d be pursued against a street-level heroin dealer. This sort of white collar crime is unconscionable and should be dealt with very strictly. But I’d be very surprised if any part of any sort of plea or consent deal required changing the organization’s mission, formally or otherwise: to do so would seem a pretty clear first amendment violation. I may think their second amendment lobbying is grotesque nonsense based on a tortured reading of an outdated constitution; but I certainly don’t oppose their right to espouse such wrongheaded beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/153 "2020-08-14T01:59:27Z")
I wasn’t suggesting that the change in mission would be required by any sort of settlement, but that a new regime might voluntarily choose to redirect the group. One reason is that it’s been financially weakened by the graft and will be further weakened as it defends itself. So it won’t have the resources for the lobbying and political contributions it’s made in the past. In fact, I believe it’s been relatively quiet in this election cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/154 "2020-08-14T02:16:28Z")
Ah, I see what you’re saying. I suppose it’s possible, but a voluntary redirection to the group seems pretty unlikely to me. (but still far likelier than the idea that there’s no legal basis for the AG’s proposed remedy). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/155 "2020-08-14T02:41:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What an astonishing claim. Do you have the legal argument to back that up? Yes, the 1st Amendment. The members of the NRA are entitled to free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/156 "2020-08-14T03:05:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The members of the NRA are entitled to free speech. Does the first amendment mean that “destroying the organization” is always a legal remedy without premise? In all the other cases mentioned earlier in the thread where other nonprofits faced a similar fate for their fraudulent behavior, was the first amendment violated? If so, did it just not occur to their attorneys that the first amendment was violated, or did they raise that issue at trial? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/157 "2020-08-14T03:08:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, the 1st Amendment. The members of the NRA are entitled to free speech. So, are you saying that no matter what illegal actions an organization takes the organization cannot be disbanded because they have a right to free speech? Maybe you are right. But the government can (in theory) throw many of their leadership in prison and fine them sufficiently to bankrupt them but I guess they could reform if they wanted to with a new crowd and if someone is willing to payoff all of their fines and debts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/158 "2020-08-14T03:51:43Z")
I can predict now the the NY AG will not destroy the NRA. Even if she wins, they will just incorporate in another state, their tax exemption come from the IRS, not NY. I doubt if she will even do that much. I also doubt she will convict either guy. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/159 "2020-08-14T17:31:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > All right, let us take for granted that the NRA does have a few top officers committing fraud and defalcation. I think LaPierre is a crook myself, so i am willing to accept this. > > Then why did the NY AG file _a civil suit_ to dissolve the NRA instead of filing _criminal fraud charges_ against LaPierre and cohorts? Being organized as a corporation, especially a corporation exempt from both state and federal taxes, comes with rights, privileges, and responsibilities, and those responsibilities are not just to their membership but to the jurisdiction as a whole. The argument here is that it’s NOT “a few top officers committing fraud and defalcation.” Instead of a few rogue employees stealing from their employer, it’s an entire organization perverted, to the extent that members who try to reform it or guide it back to non-criminal paths are themselves forced out (cf. Ollie North) instead. Obviously not every member is criminal, and indeed most of the members may be opposed to what leadership is doing financially, but those members have no influence. When the organization itself is circling the wagons to defend LaPierre and cohorts, merely filing criminal charges against him, with or without charges against a crony or three, is not effective. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/160 "2020-08-14T18:59:05Z")
From the complaint: > [@](#): > > The Attorney General’s regulatory oversight of charitable nonprofit corporations, > and their officers, directors, and key persons, includes the authority to bring actions under Section > 112 and Article 7 of the N-PCL, to dissolve a corporation, remove officers and directors, obtain > relief as a result of prohibited related party transactions, ensure adequate protections for > whistleblowers, to enforce any right given to members, or an officer or a director of a charitable > corporation and, under Section 623(a) of the N-PCL, to bring a derivative action “in the right of a > domestic or foreign corporation” to procure a judgment in favor of the corporation and against > officers, directors, or third parties. > … > 644. The NRA made materially false and misleading statements and omissions in the > annual reports the organization filed with the Attorney General. Defendant Frazer signed and > certified such reports notwithstanding the number of falsehoods therein, of which he was or should > have been aware. > 645. As a result, the NRA and Frazer violated Section 172-d(1) of the Executive Law > and, pursuant to Section 175(2)(d) of the Executive Law should be enjoined from soliciting or > collecting funds on behalf of any charitable organization operating in this State and Frazer should > be enjoined from serving as an officer, director or trustee of any not-for-profit or charitable > organization incorporated or authorized to conduct business in the State of New York. > … > WHEREFORE, the Attorney General requests judgment against the Defendants for the > following relief: > A. Dissolving the NRA and directing that its remaining assets and any future assets be > applied to charitable uses consistent with the mission set forth in the NRA’s certificate > of incorporation pursuant to N-PCL §§ 112(a)(1), 112(a)(5), 112(a)(7), 1101(a)(2), > 1102(a)(2)(D) and 1109. > B. Declaring that the NRA has exceeded the authority conferred upon it by law, has carried > on, conducted, or transacted its business in a persistently fraudulent or illegal manner, > or has abused its powers contrary to the public policy of the State of New York, and > determining, in the court’s discretion, that it is in the interest of the public to dissolve > the NRA pursuant to N-PCL §§ 112(a)(1), 112(a)(5), 1101(a)(2), 1109, and > C.P.L.R. § 3001; > Declaring that directors or members in control of the NRA have looted or wasted the > NRA’s charitable assets, have perpetuated the corporation solely for their personal > benefit, or have otherwise acted in an illegal, oppressive or fraudulent manner, and > determining, in the court’s discretion, that it is in the interest of the members to dissolve > the NRA pursuant to N-PCL §§ 112(a)(7), 1102(a)(2)(D), 1109 and C.P.L.R. § 3001; There’s a lot more. Of interest: the law specifically gives the AG the right to dissolve nonprofits that are clearly acting against their stated mission. And the remedy proposed is to dissolve the NRA _and to give its assets to other groups who will further its stated mission_. Also, the AG is requiring LaPierre et al to _repay the NRA for what they took illegally_. Breaking down an organization that’s being run fraudulently is entirely within the power of the law: when an organization disobeys tax laws and financial laws, due to the persistent choices of its long-term leadership, that’s what happens. Giving those assets to other second-amendment groups is pretty much the opposite of what you’d do if you were trying to undercut second amendment advocacy. If you really don’t want second amendment groups to succeed, you’d want their funds to be grossly mismanaged and siphoned off from advocacy, as the NRA was doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422.md?page=9)