# NY AG sues NRA alleging massive fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422 "2020-08-06T15:55:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/161 "2020-08-14T19:52:01Z")
1. It aint gonna happen. 2. Who said anything about second-amendment groups ? Could be hunter safety groups, groups that push marksmanship in a olympic type of shooting, groups that buy lands for duck hunting. The NRA’s original mission isnt about 2nd ad rights, it is about civilian marksmanship. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/162 "2020-08-14T19:53:42Z")
I’m not the sort to make predictions where I substitute confidence for evidence. If that’s your bag, though, you’re rocking it. “Who said anything about second-amendment groups?” Uh, okay. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/163 "2020-08-14T20:38:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The NRA’s original mission isnt about 2nd ad rights So? For the past 43 years, they’ve been hard-right, gun-totin’ Second Amendment activists. > **[The NRA - marksman’s friend that took aim at Washington](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-nra-marksman-s-friend-that-took-aim-at-washington-8429536.html)** > > The group was set up in 1871 to train Americans how to shoot. But in the 1970s it found a new target – politicians ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/164 "2020-08-14T21:00:10Z")
Yes, and so? Read that again "_Dissolving the NRA and directing that its remaining assets and any future assets be_ _applied to charitable uses consistent with the mission set forth in the NRA’s certificate_ _of incorporation…"_ ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/166 "2020-08-14T21:14:26Z")
New York incorporation law (and the NRA’s bylaws) provide for amending the mission set forth in a certificate of incorporation. In the case of the NRA bylaws, any amendment must be approved both by the board of directors and by a general vote of the membership. If the NRA has not gotten around to amending their certificate anytime in the last few decades, then that is their choice, and they’ll have to live with that choice. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/167 "2020-08-14T21:29:40Z")
Indeed their original incorporation statement would make them, in the parlance of the hip kids today, the ultimate “Fudds”, focused on safety and sport and not at all about the People’s Militia resisting tyranny. But like **slash2k** said, if the NRA never got its act together to amend its certificate of incorporation to explicitly make themselves de jure a 2A Advocacy entity, that’s yet another “what were they thinking” stumble from the post-1970s leadership. (Maybe some part of their NPO tax status would have been affected if they did?) As I understood it, what we commonly call “the NRA” includes besides the NRA per se, the NRA Foundation, which supports sports and recreation, and also the Institute for Legislative Action/Civil Defense Fund and the Political Victory Fund, which manage the lobbying/2A Advocacy and campaign-contribution aspects. I have no idea how closely held are the different parts of that system or if they have distinct identities. The simultaneous DC AG’s suit involves the channelling of funds from the Foundation to the political divisions IIUIC. OTOH if they _ **did** _ amend their mission statement then that should be some relief as to the possibility of a White Knight organization taking over. Heck, have two White Knights, one to take over the sportsmanship side and one to take over the Policy Advocacy side. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/168 "2020-08-14T21:52:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and so? Read that again " _Dissolving the NRA and directing that its remaining assets and any future assets be_ > _applied to charitable uses consistent with the mission set forth in the NRA’s certificate_ > _of incorporation…"_ > [@slash2k](#): > > New York incorporation law (and the NRA’s bylaws) provide for amending the mission set forth in a certificate of incorporation. In the case of the NRA bylaws, any amendment must be approved both by the board of directors and by a general vote of the membership. If the NRA has not gotten around to amending their certificate anytime in the last few decades, then that is their choice, and they’ll have to live with that choice. They did indeed get around to it. The current certificate of incorporation and bylaws are available here (Exhibits 2 & 3, respectively). > **[2019.09.24-Ackerman-Plea-in-Bar.pdf](https://nrawatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2019.09.24-Ackerman-Plea-in-Bar.pdf)** > > 12.00 MB > …further the right of the individual of good repute to keep and bear arms as a common law and contitutional right both of the individual citizen and of the collective militia. > > May 21, 1977 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/169 "2020-08-14T22:02:56Z")
NB: the certificate wasn’t actually amended until September. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/170 "2020-08-15T00:35:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I can predict now the the NY AG will not destroy the NRA. Even if she wins, they will just incorporate in another state, their tax exemption come from the IRS, not NY. I doubt if she will even do that much. I also doubt she will convict either guy. I don’t think this works. It is killing me because I _just_ saw something like this elsewhere and cannot find it now. Basically, some couple were running some scam and just kept closing their business and opening another one elsewhere thinking business A had all the problems, they ditched it and business B is in the clear. Needless to say that did not work and they got busted. The business world would be majorly messed up if all you had to do to avoid legal consequences was to close one business and open another. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/171 "2020-08-15T01:09:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I can predict now the the NY AG will not destroy the NRA. Even if she wins, they will just incorporate in another state, their tax exemption come from the IRS, not NY. I doubt if she will even do that much. I also doubt she will convict either guy. While they CAN incorporate in another state, if they get dissolved they’d have to reincorporate elsewhere without any of the assets (including intellectual assets such as trademarks), because those will be subject to the court’s jurisdiction and the court can order those distributed elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/172 "2020-08-15T01:12:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The business world would be majorly messed up if all you had to do to avoid legal consequences was to close one business and open another. It seems to be working for Trump. Over and over and over again. Sorry, I couldn’t resist the straight line. It’s a sin to waste a straight line. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/173 "2020-08-15T01:21:07Z")
Here’s a decent 5 minute video piece on the lawsuit: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/PQAa_KG6wXE/maxresdefault.jpg "Breaking Down New York AG’s Lawsuit Against the NRA | NowThis") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQAa_KG6wXE) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/174 "2020-08-15T01:21:41Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > It seems to be working for Trump. Over and over and over again. I have been amazed at Trump’s ability to seemingly lose money at anything he puts his hand to and yet is wealthy (supposedly). It certainly suggests there are different rules for you and me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/175 "2020-08-15T16:00:39Z")
From the op’s cite: Under New York State non-profit law, James has broad powers to seek to dissolve the organization, if it’s found that fraud, corruption, or waste was so endemic at the organization as to have made it impossible for the group to fulfill its charitable purpose, experts [told](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/new-york-attorney-general-dissolve-nra) TPM last year. Clearly there is no basis to suggest the NRA has not fulfilled it’s purpose. If it’s leadership took money not entitled to them then they have committed a crime and not the organization itself. They should be prosecuted and any funds taken illegally returned to the organization. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/176 "2020-08-15T17:34:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Clearly there is no basis to suggest the NRA has not fulfilled it’s purpose. If it’s leadership took money not entitled to them then they have committed a crime and not the organization itself. They should be prosecuted and any funds taken illegally returned to the organization. I’m happy to see that you’ve abandoned your previous claim, that the entitlement to free speech means that there’s no premise for destroying the organization. You didn’t admit that that was ridiculous, but your willingness to move on is good enough. Your new claim is, unfortunately, equally silly. The TPM memo is not the complaint. The complaint is linked above, and I quoted sections talking about the legal authority under which the AG has the authority to dissolve the organization. Your “clearly” claim is just nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/177 "2020-08-15T18:36:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m happy to see that you’ve abandoned your previous claim, that the entitlement to free speech means that there’s no premise for destroying the organization. I made no such claim. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your new claim is, unfortunately, equally silly. The TPM memo is not the complaint. The memo states a premise and that premise is false. You have to have a reason to destroy a legal entity and there is no logic to holding that entity liable for individual acts unless you can prove it was done at the behest of the organization. In this case the potential crimes of the accused are against the organization and not an outside entity. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/178 "2020-08-15T20:30:44Z")
Okay. If you’re just gonna deny the things you said before and then work without any evidence to make bald assertions, the conversation is too boring to continue. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/179 "2020-08-15T20:40:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Clearly there is no basis to suggest the NRA has not fulfilled it’s purpose. Evidence? Cite? How much money has been spent on the charitable purposes over the past couple of years, relative to the amount alleged to have been looted? What could that looted money have done? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/180 "2020-08-15T21:47:15Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > How much money has been spent on the charitable purposes over the past couple of years, relative to the amount alleged to have been looted? What could that looted money have done? It’s not a charity as was discussed above. It’s purpose is to promote and lobby for 2nd amendment issues. There is no doubt they have been successful in this endeavor. Any harm would be to the members of group. Disbanding it would be like disbanding a union because some of the top leaders were thieves. Imagine how this would fly if the NY AG tried to disband the AFL-CIO. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422/181 "2020-08-16T00:14:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not a charity as was discussed above. It is organized under New York law as a charitable not-for-profit, and registered with and regulated by the Charities Bureau of the New York Attorney General’s Office. It’s not a charity as the IRS defines the term, but yes, it is as the State of New York defines it, and it is as a charity that it will be judged in this lawsuit. > [@Magiver](#): > > It’s purpose is to promote and lobby for 2nd amendment issues. No. Its own stated purposes are far broader: > [@](#): > > The purposes and objectives of the National Rifle Association of America are: > > 1. To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, especially with reference to the inalienable right of the individual American citizen guaranteed by such Constitution to acquire, possess, collect, exhibit, transport, carry, transfer ownership of, and enjoy the right to use arms, in order that the people may always be in a position to exercise their legitimate individual rights of self-preservation and defense of family, person, and property, as well as to serve effectively in the appropriate militia for the common defense of the Republic and the individual liberty of its citizens; > 2. To promote public safety, law and order, and the national defense; > 3. To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms; > 4. To foster and promote the shooting sports, including the advancement of amateur competitions in marksmanship at the local, state, regional, national, and international levels; > 5. To promote hunter safety, and to promote and defend hunting as a shooting sport and as a viable and necessary method of fostering the propagation, growth and conservation, and wise use of our renewable wildlife resources. Its officers are legally obligated to work towards ALL of the organization’s stated purposes, not just cherry-pick one. Moreover, no, it is NOT obvious that they have been successful in the one area you highlighted, considering they weren’t even part of, e.g., the _Heller_ decision, probably the most significant gun rights court case of the past thirty or forty years. > [@Magiver](#): > > Any harm would be to the members of group. Disbanding it would be like disbanding a union because some of the top leaders were thieves. Imagine how this would fly if the NY AG tried to disband the AFL-CIO. No, because the NRA is a charitable corporation, mismanagement of the charitable purposes and funds also harms the charitable beneficiaries, who may not be members. Who looks out for their interests? The Attorney General is charged with that responsibility. Your union analogy fails because it presupposes that the NRA is the _only_ organization capable of carrying out its purposes at the present time, as a labor union is the only organization representing its members until a new organizing process, election, negotiations, etc., replaces it. However, the NRA isn’t the only game in town; the Gun Owners of America have been more vocal on gun rights issues, while USA Shooting is the governing body for Olympic shooting sports. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-sues-nra-alleging-massive-fraud/917422.md?page=10)