# NY AG threatening companies for selling "ghost guns". Isn't this perfectly legal in NY? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724 "2019-09-23T20:36:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/21 "2019-09-24T03:04:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’ll venture a guess that the NY AG’s office managed to figure out that someone might try that response, and thought their position vis-a-vis the relevant laws was strong enough to justify sending the letter anyway. … I doubt it. I genuinely this she’s too ignorant of gun laws to even be aware that legal AR-15 builds exist in NY. At least, her letter and press conference seem to hint that she doesn’t realize that. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/22 "2019-09-24T03:31:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I doubt it. I genuinely this she’s too ignorant of gun laws to even be aware that legal AR-15 builds exist in NY. At least, her letter and press conference seem to hint that she doesn’t realize that. :dubious: Just a few years ago, the NY AG’s office under Eric Schneiderman [indicted “ghost gun” traffickers for illegal builds](https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2015/ag-schneiderman-announces-thirty-two-count-indictment-two-defendants-charged), resulting in [prison sentences](https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2016/ag-schneiderman-announces-11-year-jail-sentence-defendant-convicted-illegally) for the accused. Do you think that the AG’s office as a criminal justice body has just completely forgotten what’s legal and what isn’t when it comes to “ghost guns”? And do you think **any** AG’s office sends out “cease and desist” letters for behavior that any schmoe on the internet can immediately tell is obviously totally legal? Of course, IANAL and am not competent to determine the legal status of the activities in question. But given that the leadership and staff of the AG’s office presumably **are** , it strikes me that your assumption that the AG’s all wrong about this could well indicate a naive misunderstanding on your part rather than hers. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/23 "2019-09-24T03:51:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Just a few years ago, the NY AG’s office under Eric Schneiderman [indicted “ghost gun” traffickers for illegal builds](https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2015/ag-schneiderman-announces-thirty-two-count-indictment-two-defendants-charged), resulting in [prison sentences](https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2016/ag-schneiderman-announces-11-year-jail-sentence-defendant-convicted-illegally) for the accused. Do you think that the AG’s office as a criminal justice body has just completely forgotten what’s legal and what isn’t when it comes to “ghost guns”? > > And do you think **any** AG’s office sends out “cease and desist” letters for behavior that any schmoe on the internet can immediately tell is obviously totally legal? > > Of course, IANAL and am not competent to determine the legal status of the activities in question. But given that the leadership and staff of the AG’s office presumably **are** , it strikes me that your assumption that the AG’s all wrong about this could well indicate a naive misunderstanding on your part rather than hers. The criminals to whom you refer were _selling_ the firearms they manufactured. Manufacturing and selling without a FFL is against the law throughout the USA. It is- or should be, if there are places you can’t- perfectly legal to make your own weapon, subject to other laws controlling the end product. Why shouldn’t one? This is America, where individualism is more prized than elsewhere, and we don’t hold the view ‘if it isn’t allowed, then it’s forbidden’. The issue with 80% receivers is serialization and where the line is drawn (must you mine your own bauxite?) The BATFE is fine with a part sold that cannot house a trigger assembly. There are also 80% receivers for 1911s (aluminum) and Glocks (plastic). I have made a few (I like tinkering and making things) and gave them serial numbers per BATFE rules. They work fine. And they’re legal. I think the AG is trying to run a bluff to make sales not worth the trouble for someone. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/24 "2019-09-24T04:01:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Just a few years ago, the NY AG’s office under Eric Schneiderman [indicted “ghost gun” traffickers for illegal builds](https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2015/ag-schneiderman-announces-thirty-two-count-indictment-two-defendants-charged), resulting in [prison sentences](https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2016/ag-schneiderman-announces-11-year-jail-sentence-defendant-convicted-illegally) for the accused. Do you think that the AG’s office as a criminal justice body has just completely forgotten what’s legal and what isn’t when it comes to “ghost guns”? … The prosecution, AFAICT, was for the acts of selling them, and possession by prohibited persons. The simple making of a firearm (from an 80% lower) and possession of it by a non-prohibited person is not against the law in NY. The press releases (and subsequent news coverage) seem deliberately crafted to obscure these facts. It does contain this tidbit though: “an incomplete lower receiver—lacking certain holes, slots, or cavities—is not considered a firearm, but instead regulated as if it were just a piece of metal.” Now they’ve sent out cease and desist letters to companies for selling those pieces of metal. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/25 "2019-09-24T04:19:28Z")
Also worth mentioning: these websites and companies are likely based outside of NY. That makes this appear like a lame attempt by NY to regulate interstate commerce. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/26 "2019-09-24T04:26:04Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > … I think the AG is trying to run a bluff to make sales not worth the trouble for someone. This is my suspicion too. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/27 "2019-09-24T11:59:24Z")
The key part seems to be that they want the data on who is purchasing the products, undermining the marketing angle of the state not knowing about your gun. This is simply the state trying to spook people it doesn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/28 "2019-09-24T13:11:37Z")
Youtube has removed the video now, but there was a very interesting video up there of a guy melting down 265 beer cans, casting a block of aluminum, and machining it into an AR-15 lower received. He assembled it and test fired it several times. He also did the same thing with brass cartridge cases in another video. (Neither video was instructional, they just showed the guy at work.) So, a reasonably skilled machinist with a reasonably equipped home shop was able to turn out a fully functional lower receiver in a day or so. So, no need for 80% complete kits, just a supply of beer cans and some ordinary machine tools. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/29 "2019-09-24T14:46:06Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > It is- or should be, if there are places you can’t- perfectly legal to make your own weapon, subject to other laws controlling the end product. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The prosecution, AFAICT, was for the acts of selling them, and possession by prohibited persons. The simple making of a firearm (from an 80% lower) and possession of it by a non-prohibited person is not against the law in NY. As then-AG Schneiderman said in that linked cite, though, > [@](#): > > “It does not matter if you build it yourself or buy it off the street corner—an illegal gun is an illegal gun, and we will prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law.” I think it’ll take more than a bunch of “suspicion” to make a truly convincing argument that the current AG’s position that she’s trying to discourage manufacture of illegal guns is not legally justified. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/30 "2019-09-24T17:21:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As then-AG Schneiderman said in that linked cite, though, > I think it’ll take more than a bunch of “suspicion” to make a truly convincing argument that the current AG’s position that she’s trying to discourage manufacture of illegal guns is not legally justified. Even if she is banning the same (unmodified) item used to manufacture a legal gun? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/31 "2019-09-24T18:47:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This is my suspicion too. [Washington DC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_District_of_Columbia) does this kind of thing a lot - pass a law, it’s un-Constitutional, they pass a different law, also gets found un-Constitutional, pass another, lather, rinse, repeat. In the meantime, gun control types get publicity, gun owners are hassled and thereby raise the opportunity cost of gun ownership, everyone is happy except gun owners and Constitutionalists. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/32 "2019-09-24T20:44:54Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Even if she is banning the same (unmodified) item used to manufacture a legal gun? As I’ve said, IANAL, and I’m not sure whether your apparent conflation of a “cease and desist” letter with “banning” is an accurate representation of the situation. But AFAICT, what the NY AG’s office is trying to do is to get people to stop selling materials that are **“intended for the assembly of” weapons that are illegal in New York**. Are you arguing that these materials are **not** in fact intended for the assembly of NY-illegal “ghost guns”, and that the manufacturers are **not** trying to attract customers by hinting at the possibilities for illegal “ghost gun” construction? Or are you just complaining that if the manufacturers can manage to throw a thin veil of deniability over that intention, it’s not fair for the AG’s office to take any action that demonstrates that they can see through it? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/33 "2019-09-24T23:17:48Z")
So can new York actually prosecute individuals and businesses who are not present in new York for mailing items that are legal under federal law but illegal in NY? Say I sell a lawn mower illegal by carb to a resident of California. My business has no presence in California. Can they go after me? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/34 "2019-09-24T23:39:13Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > So can new York actually prosecute individuals and businesses who are not present in new York for mailing items that are legal under federal law but illegal in NY? Well, I wish that somebody who actually IAL, preferably licensed to practice in New York, would undertake to answer these questions of fact. Until they do, the best I can come up with is to point to the OP’s linked letter from the NY AG’s office: > [@](#): > > My office has reason to believe that you are engaged in the sale and advertisement to residents of New York of unfinished lower receivers and firearms components that are intended for the assembly of assault weapons […] illegal in New York, and the sale and/or advertisement of these products violates New York law. […] > > New York law criminalizes the possession, manufacture, sale, and transportation of […] any semiautomatic rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of several enumerated secondary characteristics […] Yet those are precisely the purposes of the products that your website(s) appear to offer for sale to New Yorkers. […] Nor does your website adequately warn New York consumers that using these products in the manner for which they are intended and advertised could result in imprisonment and/or fines. […] > > These sales also contravene New York’s consumer protection statutes, which prohibit “repeated fraudulent or illegal acts” as well as “deceptive acts or practices” or “[f]alse advertising in the conduct of any business, trade or commerce.” […] Any misrepresentation or omission on your website that it is a criminal offense under New York State law to manufacture and/or possess assault weapons—the very purpose for which those products are intended and designed—is a deceptive trade practice that may subject you to disgorgement of all income resulting from such fraudulent and illegal practice, restitution to consumers, and penalties of up to $5,000 for each individual violation […] > > […] the recipients of this notice are afforded the opportunity to show orally or in writing to the New York State Office of the Attorney General, within five business days of receipt of this notice, why the Attorney General should not initiate an enforcement action. I can’t say of my own personal knowledge whether it’s legally legit for the NY AG’s office to require the sellers/advertisers in question to refrain from selling/advertising their wares to New Yorkers. But it seems fairly clear from this letter that the NY AG’s office holds the opinion that it is. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/35 "2019-09-24T23:39:43Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > So can new York actually prosecute individuals and businesses who are not present in new York for mailing items that are legal under federal law but illegal in NY? > > Say I sell a lawn mower illegal by carb to a resident of California. My business has no presence in California. Can they go after me? I’m pretty sure their jurisdiction ends at their border, but I’m open to correction on this point. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/36 "2019-09-25T00:13:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m pretty sure their jurisdiction ends at their border, but I’m open to correction on this point. Sure, but define “their border.” A seller actively marketing to New Yorkers, for example by direct mail or advertising in New York newspapers, may be considered to be “in New York” for purposes of prosecution even if the business itself is located elsewhere. [Long-arm jurisdiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-arm_jurisdiction) is a fascinating and complex area of law. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/37 "2019-09-25T03:12:54Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Sure, but define “their border.” A seller actively marketing to New Yorkers, for example by direct mail or advertising in New York newspapers, may be considered to be “in New York” for purposes of prosecution even if the business itself is located elsewhere. [Long-arm jurisdiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-arm_jurisdiction) is a fascinating and complex area of law. Ok. So let’s say my add for that illegal item is on a regular website. It doesn’t say anywhere on the site “welcome New Yorkers” but I just don’t care, anyone that pays up in the Continental USA, I ship to them. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/38 "2019-09-25T03:44:23Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Ok. So let’s say my add for that illegal item is on a regular website. It doesn’t say anywhere on the site “welcome New Yorkers” but I just don’t care, anyone that pays up in the Continental USA, I ship to them. There are a lot of products that are prohibited on a state by state basis besides firearms. It would be silly to say something is illegal, but a vendor like Amazon could simply ship there. Of course it’s illegal to ship into a state a product that is illegal. For example, starting July 1, 2019, [any garage door opener sold or installed for residential use in CA is required to have a battery backup system in case of power failure.](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB969) > [@](#): > > 1. (a) In addition to any other remedies permitted by law, any violations of subdivision (a), (b), or (c) of Section 19890 or Section 19892 shall be subject to a civil penalty of one thousand dollars ($1,000) per opener installed, manufactured, sold, or offered for sale which is not in compliance with Section 19890 or 19892. > (b) In addition to any other remedies permitted by law, any violations of subdivision (d) or (h) of Section 19890 shall be subject to a civil penalty of five hundred dollars ($500) per opener installed and operational, that is not in compliance with Section 19890. > … > 2. (a) On or after July 1, 2019, no person, corporation, or entity shall manufacture for sale in this state, sell, offer for sale at retail or wholesale, or install in this state a residential automatic garage door opener that does not have a battery backup function that is designed to operate when activated because of an electrical outage. The battery backup function shall operate in a manner so that the automatic garage door opener is operational without interruption during an electrical outage. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/39 "2019-09-25T04:28:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There are a lot of products that are prohibited on a state by state basis besides firearms. It would be silly to say something is illegal, but a vendor like Amazon could simply ship there. \*\*Of course it’s illegal to ship into a state a product that is illegal. \*\* > > For example, starting July 1, 2019, [any garage door opener sold or installed for residential use in CA is required to have a battery backup system in case of power failure.](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB969) How does this work? Every retailer anywhere in the USA is required to know if their products are legal or not for any possible US state? Even if they have no business presence there and are just mailing stuff online? I take it this applies to online services as well? (“sorry, you can’t subscribe to this porn site as I see you live in \ and this type of porn is not legal there”) This seems rather, well, problematic. Not only for all the business complexity this adds, but it kind of breaks interstate commerce. What stops Kansas for declaring that corn from any other state but theirs is not legal? I had the impression that Federal laws were mostly structured in a way that basically makes goods and services the Feds think are ok (approved cars, approved electrical devices, approved medicines, approved firearms, and so on) that states cannot ban items that the Federal authorities are ok with. Except guns, it seems. I mean, otherwise, why hasn’t Michigan banned foreign cars? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724/40 "2019-09-25T04:55:22Z")
My (limited, IANAL) understanding is that there is a fairly novel new field of legal pursuit: states using civil suits to enforce their will where the Constitution would normally seem to prohibit their regulation of interstate commerce. For example, NJ has sued (civilly) a couple of gun retailers: [U.S. Patriot Armory out of California in March](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-jersey-ghost-guns-lawsuit/new-jersey-sues-company-over-illegal-ghost-gun-sales-idUSKCN1R32DA) and [New Frontier Armory LLC out of Nevada in June](https://www.nj.com/politics/2019/06/nj-sues-nevada-gun-dealer-that-shipped-banned-100-round-magazine-to-undercover-agents.html). New York appears not content to play second fiddle to New Jersey, and are starting the groundwork for their own lawsuits. I’m skeptical their lawsuits would actually succeed on the merits, for the reasons you outlined, but for many companies (and I think this is what they’re counting on), it’s not going to be worth it to battle it out in court against a deep-pocketed AG office, so they’ll just concede to their demands and quit selling to NJ or NY. Someone should counter-sue the NY and NJ AG’s office for some flavor of deprivation of rights under color of law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-ag-threatening-companies-for-selling-ghost-guns-isnt-this-perfectly-legal-in-ny/840724.md?page=3)