# NY - London 5,000MPH Train **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728 "2005-01-26T07:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nunavut\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e95f7d/32.png) [@Nunavut\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunavut_Boy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/1 "2005-01-26T07:29:58Z")
I watched a show a while ago about how some future-looking engineers were contemplating a vacuum-sealed underwater maglev train tunnel from NY to London. They say that it would take 45min one way. (18 mins acceleration, 18 min deceleration). They were projecting a completion date of something like the year 2100. Is such a thing possible with today’s technology, if money were no object? Would such an idea be a GOOD idea? Is it realistic to expect that in a hundred years we might have something like that? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/2 "2005-01-26T07:44:31Z")
We don’t have the technology to dig over 35800 ft (Marianas trench)\* into the ground let a lone build a tunnel at that depth so no way jose. \*We were there for 20 minutes to get that lame ass joke out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Nunavut\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e95f7d/32.png) [@Nunavut\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunavut_Boy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/3 "2005-01-26T07:47:02Z")
Sorry. Should’ve been clearer. They want the tunnel to float some distance under the surface of the ocean. IT is to be stablized by some sort of guy wire system. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/4 "2005-01-26T07:48:22Z")
With money no object, would they not build the “tunnel” as a tethered floating tube some distance beneath the surface? ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/5 "2005-01-26T07:49:23Z")
Damn hamsters 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Roches](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc8723/32.png) [@Roches](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roches)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/6 "2005-01-26T08:56:53Z")
I saw that show too. IANA engineer of any sort, but it seemed very implausible. I particularly enjoyed how they gave a long list of possible problems that might be encountered, then delivered an elegant solution. What if there’s a fire? The vacuum will take care of that. What about air resistance? We plan to use a frictionless surface and ignore air resistance. Ultimately, such a project – if it is possible – could only happen if it could be financially viable. How many people are willing to pay a premium fare to ride from NY to London at 5,000 mph? It might be viable if transatlantic air travel was completely replaced by the tunnel, turning NY and London into hubs for the entire transatlantic market, though that would cause some other problems. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/7 "2005-01-26T12:25:39Z")
I saw the show as well. One of my nitpicks is that New York and London are both crowded enough, thank you, and don’t need to be used as the endpoints of a transatlantic train service, adding to the congestion. Why take 45 minutes to cross the Atlantic and then need the same amount of time to get to your hotel? ---
**Author:** ![hyjyljyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/0ea827/32.png) [@hyjyljyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hyjyljyj)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/8 "2005-01-26T12:49:47Z")
> [@SavageNarce](#): > > I saw the show as well. One of my nitpicks is that New York and London are both crowded enough, thank you, and don’t need to be used as the endpoints of a transatlantic train service, adding to the congestion. Why take 45 minutes to cross the Atlantic and then need the same amount of time to get to your hotel? But wouldn’t a trainload of people leaving NY for London be decreasing the congestion in NY by the same amount that it increased it in London? I don’t see how shuffling people from one to the other causes a net change in congestion. As to the OP, who knows what kind of technology will be available in 100 years? A hundred years ago, the idea of computers talking to each other, laser surgery, men walking on the moon, transcontinental flight, nuclear bombs or jello would have been unthinkable. Where there’s a need, science seems to find a way eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/9 "2005-01-26T12:58:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > We don’t have the technology to dig over 35800 ft (Marianas trench)\* into the ground let a lone build a tunnel at that depth so no way jose. > > \*We were there for 20 minutes to get that lame ass joke out of the way. No offence, but passing through the [Marianas trench](http://www.geocities.com/thesciencefiles/marianas/trench.html) to get from NYC to London would be taking the LONG way around. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/10 "2005-01-26T13:01:09Z")
> [@hyjyljyj](#): > > But wouldn’t a trainload of people leaving NY for London be decreasing the congestion in NY by the same amount that it increased it in London? I don’t see how shuffling people from one to the other causes a net change in congestion. I think what **SavageNarce** is saying is: If it takes an hour-and-a-half to get through traffic to the maglev train station in New York, plus an hour-and-a-half to get through security, plus an hour for customs, plus half-an-hour for embarking, plus half-an-hour disembarking on the other end, plus an hour drive through traffic in London to get to a hotel, then you’ve already invested five hours or so getting from New York to London. In that case, a 45-minute maglev train ride isn’t _that_ much of an improvement over a 4-hour SST plane ride. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/11 "2005-01-26T13:16:02Z")
The technical problems are solvable, but it is hard to see why society would want to build such an expensive project which would be opposed by the airlines, shipping companies and of course the Stonecutters. Funding would be a big, big problem for a project that would take 20 years to complete. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/12 "2005-01-26T13:49:34Z")
Right now, northern transatlantic travellers are spread out. Many travellers pass through the New York area (primarily JFK and Newark) on the North American side, but there are many other airports one can use. Many travellers pass through the London area (Heathrow and Gatwick) on the European side, but again there are many other choices. A single tunnel carrying a significantly larger portion of this traffic would cause congestion because some people who would ordinarily fly, say, Frankfurt, Germany to Chicago, USA, would decide instead to travel from Frankfurt to London, take the train to New York, and then travel New York to Chicago. In theory it could also increase transatlantic travel, by making it possible, even convenient (if expensive), for people who live near one end of the tunnel to pop across the ocean for a long weekend. It’s said the Channel Tunnel has led to an increase in the number of Londoners taking a day trip to Paris, to show a similar real-life example. All of this is only theoretic anyway, because this turkey ain’t gonna fly in more ways than one. Even if it were technologically feasible, which it isn’t, it would cost more money to build and maintain than they could ever hope to earn back. Most of the projects on the first series of _Extreme Engineering_ were pretty wild, but this one really took the cake. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/13 "2005-01-26T13:55:16Z")
A Transatlantic tunnel, Hurrah! The idea has already been thought of by Mr Harrison. Aren’t London and New York moving away from each other though? ---
**Author:** ![micco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@micco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/micco)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/14 "2005-01-26T14:03:36Z")
> [@zut](#): > > In that case, a 45-minute maglev train ride isn’t _that_ much of an improvement over a 4-hour SST plane ride. So you’re saying you don’t see a difference between five hours and nine hours total travel time? If you’re in the transportation business, you solve the inefficiencies where you can. There is very little one company could do to eliminate traffic issues in NY or London, remove security delays, or drastically speed up embark/debark times. The one link in the chain a single company can optimize is travel time. If they can do it in an economically feasible way, then it speeds up the overall trip. Yes, you still have to consider all the other links in the chain. No, the existence of those other links doesn’t make optimizing one link pointless. That’s not to say I think a NY-London high-speed train is practical, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t make it work, and it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t at least try to speed up the bits they can. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/15 "2005-01-26T14:41:40Z")
> [@Vetch](#): > > A Transatlantic tunnel, Hurrah! > The idea has already been thought of by Mr Harrison. > Aren’t London and New York moving away from each other though? That was a great story! I think I read it in Analog Magazine. Wonder if I still have that issue? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/16 "2005-01-26T15:29:37Z")
“A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!” appeared as a serial in the April, May and June 1972 issues of _Analog_. The first book publication, BTW, was under the title _Tunnel Through the Deeps_, although the original title was restored later. > [@zut](#): > > I think what SavageNarce is saying is: If it takes an hour-and-a-half to get through traffic to the maglev train station in New York, plus an hour-and-a-half to get through security, plus an hour for customs, plus half-an-hour for embarking, plus half-an-hour disembarking on the other end, plus an hour drive through traffic in London to get to a hotel, then you’ve already invested five hours or so getting from New York to London. In that case, a 45-minute maglev train ride isn’t that much of an improvement over a 4-hour SST plane ride. But how do you think it possible for a trip on an SST **not** to require the time to get to the airport, go through security, disembark, etc. Travel is travel no matter the means. You can’t eliminate all this extra time by magic just to bolster your case. The problem with the tunnel is the same problem as any fixed route system: unless there are overwhelming concentrations of passengers on each end, no fixed route system can compete financially with a variable route system. Well before we get the technology to do a transatlantic tunnel, we’ll have the technology to do a scamjet that will also take only 45 minutes to get across the ocean, but be capable of flying to any major airport in the world. The advantages are obvious. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/17 "2005-01-26T15:59:14Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > But how do you think it possible for a trip on an SST **not** to require the time to get to the airport, go through security, disembark, etc. Travel is travel no matter the means. You can’t eliminate all this extra time by magic just to bolster your case. I’m _not_ saying that you _wouldn’t_ have to go though all the security rigamarole with the SST. What I _am_ saying (or, rather, what I’m echoing **SavageNarce** in saying) is that you’re not getting across the Atlantic five times faster (45 minutes versus 4 hours) – you’re getting across the Atlantic twice as fast (5 hours versus 9 hours). How **micco** interpreted it, in other words: > [@micco](#): > > So you’re saying you don’t see a difference between five hours and nine hours total travel time? Sure, there’s a difference between five and nine hours travel time… but not a _lot_ of difference. This is kind of getting into IMHO territory, but… all things being equal, I’m sure people would rather take the quicker mode of transportation. But how many people would pay a _lot_ extra to shave 50% off their travel time? Especially in the NY-to-London direction, where the 5-hour option _still_ requires you to either arrive after business hours anyway, or get up God-awful early in the morning. Now, if you really could go 45 minutes office-to-office, _that_ might actually change the way people did business, despite the extra cost. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/18 "2005-01-26T16:29:12Z")
> [@zut](#): > > Sure, there’s a difference between five and nine hours travel time… but not a _lot_ of difference. This is kind of getting into IMHO territory, but… all things being equal, I’m sure people would rather take the quicker mode of transportation. But how many people would pay a _lot_ extra to shave 50% off their travel time? Ask the folks who ran the Concorde SST from Paris or London to New York. The answer is not enough to make it viable. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/19 "2005-01-26T17:15:45Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > Ask the folks who ran the Concorde SST from Paris or London to New York. The answer is not enough to make it viable. Really. For all the talk about “Gee, how cool is it that I can cross the ocean at supersonic speeds,” the fact is that very, very, _very_ few people actually need to get anywhere that fast. The Concorde was always more of a status symbol than a useful means of transportation. I have to imagine that this tunnel would end up the same way. And it would probably fall by the wayside much sooner than the Concorde did, since the maintenance costs would be astronomical. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728/20 "2005-01-26T19:44:51Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > Right now, northern transatlantic travellers are spread out. Many travellers pass through the New York area (primarily JFK and Newark) on the North American side, but there are many other airports one can use. Many travellers pass through the London area (Heathrow and Gatwick) on the European side, but again there are many other choices. A single tunnel carrying a significantly larger portion of this traffic would cause congestion because some people who would ordinarily fly, say, Frankfurt, Germany to Chicago, USA, would decide instead to travel from Frankfurt to London, take the train to New York, and then travel New York to Chicago. I did almost the exact opposite about a month ago, got on a train in Nuremberg and took that to the Frankfurt airport, and got on a plane there to cross the ocean. By the time the technology exists to build this under water, there should already by plenty of high-speed trains on land. You’ll board the train in Frankfurt, maybe stop in Brussels and London, merge with the routes from Paris and Madrid, cross under the ocean to New York, and stay on the train right to Chicago. Which is not to say that I think this will happen within 95 years, just that the tunnel would be only one part of a larger system. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-london-5-000mph-train/286728.md?page=2)