# NY Observer food critic enraged by wealthy white people enjoying chi-chi hip-hop themed restaurant **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 14, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180 "2013-08-14T02:13:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/41 "2013-08-15T16:06:15Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If you actually read the review, the author’s disdain is not really for the theme (beyond it being somewhat oddly executed), but rather for the restaurant’s claim to actually embody New York. It’s not a complaint about cultural appropriation as much as it is about an upscale restaurant that is unconvincingly trying to claim to be more than a passing yuppy hangout. And TGI Fridays claims to embody Fridays. So what? As an aside, what would make it convincing (or just convincing enough)? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/42 "2013-08-15T16:06:37Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Ummm that’s how it works now. The service people live in the outer boroughs and commute in via subway. They are willing to take long commutes. That’s what service people do. The revolution will not be televised. It’ll be serviced by people living in the outer boroughs. _Because that’s what service people do._ ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/43 "2013-08-15T16:08:30Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s not even that the clientele is enjoying it - if the patrons were dancing around and wearing gold chains and rapping along with the lyrics, it would be an entirely different criticism that attached, I imagine. It’s the proprietor that’s the problem, staking out some kind of cultural affiliation. > > They’re pretending a historical significance that they have no connection to; as if rap was one part of a shared heritage called “New York” that this chic West Village restaurant has really captured in its entirety. What they really did is pick one highly specific history they have no connection to and smash it into a stereotypical rich-people’s bar and pretend there’s a connection. The place has nothing to actually do with rap or rappers; that’s why it’s called Charlie Bird, for christ’s sake. That’s what’s offensive, that there’s no reason the place should have any association with rap at all, other than quirky ornamentation. It’s the kind of fucked up postmodern ironic sincerity bullshit where you can’t tell if they even think there’s a joke or not. Specifically, it’s the fact that a place named after a heroin-addicted jazz musician who washed dishes in Harlem is using images of dudes from Staten Island and Queens to put on airs about how it and its wine at $19 a glass just “is New York,” as if it embodies those people’s experiences in the same way their music did. Obviously, for people to whom those experiences mean something, it’s going to be a problem when somebody to whom they clearly don’t mean anything claims any kind of ownership of them. Quoted for specialness. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/44 "2013-08-15T16:33:19Z")
“Charlie Bird is the restaurant version of Miley Cyrus twerking.” Ooooh, burn. That line made me laugh out loud and pretty much summed it up. Sounds like another one of those overpriced restaurants where you go to be seen and in proximity to the right crowd rather than for the actual food. Normally I fingerwag at thoughtless cultural appropriation, but I think he goes just a little bit overboard here. The restaurant theme is try-hard, lame, kind of silly and pretty inauthentic. It’s Miley Cyrus twerking…but it’s hardly Paula Deen trying to recreate a slave plantation wedding for shits and giggles. Roll-eyes at the first, nostril flaring indignation over the second. I guess I have a TSA Alert Level setting for ethnic outrage though (note, I am not African American)…I can’t go straight to red. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/45 "2013-08-15T18:30:51Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > \*\*“Charlie Bird is the restaurant version of Miley Cyrus twerking.” > \*\* > Ooooh, burn. That line made me laugh out loud and pretty much summed it up. > > Sounds like another one of those overpriced restaurants where you go to be seen and in proximity to the right crowd rather than for the actual food. > > Normally I fingerwag at thoughtless cultural appropriation, but I think he goes just a little bit overboard here. The restaurant theme is try-hard, lame, kind of silly and pretty inauthentic. It’s Miley Cyrus twerking…but it’s hardly Paula Deen trying to recreate a slave plantation wedding for shits and giggles. Roll-eyes at the first, nostril flaring indignation over the second. > > I guess I have a TSA Alert Level setting for ethnic outrage though (note, I am not African American)…I can’t go straight to red. I’m confused as to what the Cyrus twerking line actually MEANS. Is it calling the restaurateurs out for trying to seem relevant once their relevancy has passed? Or is it again trying to make a point about cultural appropriation…and again a rather offensive point that a dance style somehow BELONGS to a culture and cannot be done by “others” without some sort of power dynamic at play? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/46 "2013-08-15T19:08:23Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > then he doesn’t need to go there. Actually, it’s kind of his job to go there. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/47 "2013-08-15T19:28:00Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I’m confused as to what the Cyrus twerking line actually MEANS. Is it calling the restaurateurs out for trying to seem relevant once their relevancy has passed? Or is it again trying to make a point about cultural appropriation…and again a rather offensive point that a dance style somehow BELONGS to a culture and cannot be done by “others” without some sort of power dynamic at play? [Social justice sanctimony. It’s what’s for dinner in 2013.](http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=%22cultural+appropriation%22#q=%22cultural%20appropriation%22&cmpt=q) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/48 "2013-08-15T20:00:03Z")
Disaffected bitching by the coincidentally-advantaged’s only for dessert. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/49 "2013-08-15T20:53:19Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I’m confused as to what the Cyrus twerking line actually MEANS. Is it calling the restaurateurs out for trying to seem relevant once their relevancy has passed? Or is it again trying to make a point about cultural appropriation…and again a rather offensive point that a dance style somehow BELONGS to a culture and cannot be done by “others” without some sort of power dynamic at play? Have you seen Miley Cyrus twerking? It’s embarrassingly affected, poorly executed, and limply commercial. It’s an uninspiring, sad scene that hits all the wrong notes, even discounting politics. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/50 "2013-08-15T21:04:20Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I’m confused as to what the Cyrus twerking line actually MEANS. Is it calling the restaurateurs out for trying to seem relevant once their relevancy has passed? Or is it again trying to make a point about cultural appropriation…and again a rather offensive point that a dance style somehow BELONGS to a culture and cannot be done by “others” without some sort of power dynamic at play? You don’t understand why saying that Charlie Bird is about as hip hop as Hannah Montana trying to “twerk” is an insult (and a hilarious one at that)? Because it’s not very authentic, ridiculous and lame. Hannah Montana is trying to reinvent herself as a Super Serious Artist and not a Mouseketeer so she went shopping for a new identity and decided the best one for her to look as rebellious as possible would be in urban music and dance…which she refers to as “hood music” by the way. In three years if she’s even around she’ll be what, something else? I don’t care too much about cultural appropriation or get very worked up over it as I am an immigrant and therefore have happily appropriated many “American” values myself-I am grateful for having been exposed to this culture. It’s not like I went around at my wedding and said “No mehndi for the white people! You don’t have the requisite cultural experience for this to be authentic!” But I do raise an eyebrow at affecting other people’s cultural identity/art/lifestyle/clothing for shits, giggles and cash and then moving on when it becomes boring. It feels like trivializing things other people work hard on and take seriously. Kind of like if I pretended to convert so I could try getting in on one of those wild Southern baptisms just to see what it feels like…even though I’m a practicing Hindu. Doesn’t doing something like that strike you as being really offensive? Like porn man…you know it when you see it! ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/51 "2013-08-15T21:26:19Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > You don’t understand why saying that Charlie Bird is about as hip hop as Hannah Montana trying to “twerk” is an insult (and a hilarious one at that)? Because it’s not very **authentic** , ridiculous and lame. Hannah Montana is trying to reinvent herself as a Super Serious Artist and not a Mouseketeer so she went shopping for a new identity and decided the best one for her to look as rebellious as possible would be in urban music and dance…which she refers to as “hood music” by the way. In three years if she’s even around she’ll be what, something else? Who cares if she’s something else in three years? How old is she 18, 19? She’ll probably go through another two or three phases before she settles down. Maybe we’ll see Steampunk Miley? And saying it’s not “authentic?” That’s what I don’t get. So Miley twerks badly? There are 1000s of bad twerking examples on youtube. But saying “it’s not very authentic” is the hang up and confusion for me. It’s a dance move. Is it inauthentic because…she’s white? That seems to put way too much emphasis on “twerking” within the African-America experience. And the twerking is pretty minor in her persona reinvention–the drugs and tattoos are lot more prominent. So is the issue with the restaurant that it claims to be a representation of New York or a representation of Hip Hop? I only saw the claim made of the former and not the later. It fails to represent New York because it is a high-end nu-gourmet with a pretty uninspiring and lacking in diversity menu. It doesn’t fail to represent New York because white people eat there. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/52 "2013-08-15T21:53:38Z")
According to the review, the place is decked out in hip-hop because the guy who owns it is a big fan of hip-hop. > [@](#): > > Mr. Bohr, who describes himself on Twitter as a “sommelier, food and wine lover, big hip hop fan,” perches on the railing of a ramp with a glass of Chartogne-Taillet champagne ($28), the West Village version of St. Ides, in his hand, mouthing the words. I myself dislike hip-hop, but I don’t see why the owner should not indulge his liking for the music, however “inauthentic” it may be for a White dude to enjoy it (well, I _assume_ he’s White, though the article does not say) who also describes himself as a “sommelier”. To my no doubt limited mind, someone actually being a personal fan of a music style is “authenticity” enough to enjoy it, even to work it into his business, even if he lacks the right social, ethnic or racial background. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/53 "2013-08-15T21:59:34Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Who cares if she’s something else in three years? How old is she 18, 19? She’ll probably go through another two or three phases before she settles down. Maybe we’ll see Steampunk Miley? > > And saying it’s not “authentic?” That’s what I don’t get. So Miley twerks badly? There are 1000s of bad twerking examples on youtube. But saying “it’s not very authentic” is the hang up and confusion for me. It’s a dance move. > > Is it inauthentic because…she’s white? A lot of black people twerk badly too. The issue isn’t her twerking ability or the fact that she’s white. Lots of white people indulge in hip hop culture without reproach. Because they have a genuine love for it. They work their way through it. They try to understand it. Culture means something to the people that build and embody it, and anyone who feels the same way is generally ok. That’s assimilation. When the superficial trappings of a culture are used to play dress up, though… yes, the people to whom that culture matters are gonna take issue. Yeah, ‘cultural appropriation’ is historically common, but guess what… the people appropriated from have \*never \*been cool with it. But they’ve also historically never had a voice to say so. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/54 "2013-08-15T22:06:22Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > A lot of black people twerk badly too. The issue isn’t her twerking ability or the fact that she’s white. > > Lots of white people indulge in hip hop culture without reproach. Because they have a genuine love for it. They work their way through it. They try to understand it. Culture means something to the people that build and embody it, and anyone who feels the same way is generally ok. That’s assimilation. The article states that the guy who owns the place alleges to love the music. Are you saying he’s not being honest, or that he’s not _allowed_ to love the music “without reproach” without finding some deeper meaning in it, and expressing that meaning somehow? ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/55 "2013-08-15T22:23:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The article states that the guy who owns the place alleges to love the music. > > Are you saying he’s not being honest, or that he’s not _allowed_ to love the music “without reproach” without finding some deeper meaning in it, and expressing that meaning somehow? If he’s an actual fan, more power to him. I wasn’t debating the article really. Just the developing side discussion on ‘cultural appropriation’ (I hate buzz terms). ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/56 "2013-08-15T22:23:54Z")
What the fuck is “twerking?” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/57 "2013-08-15T22:30:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s not exactly his complaint, either. What he’s talking about is gentrification. It’s the fact that they’re enjoying it in the West Village that’s bothering him. That’s about how I read it. Either there aren’t any wealthy black people who like hip hop or it’s an overpriced novelty which crowds out the average listener. Frankly I wouldn’t go into ANY restaurant that deliberately played loud music of any kind but that’s me. The critique appeared to be on the money. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/58 "2013-08-15T22:40:08Z")
**jz78817** : youtube it. Maybe because the idea that Miley Cyrus doing anything like that makes me lose my appetite, and the author is saying that that’s a bad thing to associate your restaurant with? 🙂 White, out-of-touch, question hijack: it seems I hear about twerking all the time now. Considering it’s a rather recent “trend,” is this the same twerking I heard about in Get Low… (looks it up)… **[Ten f-ing years ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Low_%28song%29)!?!?** And why did it come back? It’s possible I’ve missed constant references, of course. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/59 "2013-08-15T22:51:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Actually, it’s kind of his job to go there. yes, and I’m saying “his job is worthless and he has no reason to have such an over-inflated ego.” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180/60 "2013-08-15T23:01:05Z")
Can we agree that bad taste exists? For example, it would be poor taste to name my upscale French wine bar “Kabul Bombastic”, decorate it with artsy pictures of wounded veterans, and include stylized interpretations of Purple Hearts on the menu. The critic isn’t trying to get the place shut down. He just thinks its kind of lame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-observer-food-critic-enraged-by-wealthy-white-people-enjoying-chi-chi-hip-hop-themed-restaurant/666180.md?page=4)