# NY Times piece on "the religion of atheism" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 31, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256 "2015-05-31T14:50:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/61 "2015-06-02T04:53:36Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > … we seem to come full circle back to where I first joined this thread … “Joined” this thread? Have you become a dreaded Threadite, filling the thread-shaped hole in your existence with forum dialogues? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/62 "2015-06-02T05:33:21Z")
The article only mentions adults. Are their children at these meetings? Is there some sort of atheist sunday school? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/63 "2015-06-02T05:40:24Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > Oh, and of course, atheist are called “militant” for trying to keep teacher-led prayer and religious proselytization out of schools and prayer out of council meetings, but Christians are only called militant for actual violent actions (hell, truthfully I’ve never heard “militant” used to describe Christians, even those that carry out violent actions in the name of their faith). They’re usually called “fundamentalists”, or “zealots”. And they’re out there. Most people when they speak of “militant” atheists are thinking of New Atheism, which can be pretty obnoxious, at least from my observation. _shrugs_ (I’m not talking about keeping schools and government secular and religious-neutral) ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/64 "2015-06-02T15:11:35Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > “Joined” this thread? Have you become a dreaded Threadite, filling the thread-shaped hole in your existence with forum dialogues? Only the really interesting ones - and this one certainly qualifies. 😉 Seriously - from the standpoint of giving me things to think about and ponder further, this has been one of the better ones to pop up here in a while. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/65 "2015-06-02T15:29:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Is there some sort of atheist sunday school? It is called “school” and it meets Monday through Friday. ETA: actually, I took my kids to museums, science expos, the park, etc on Sundays. ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/66 "2015-06-02T16:06:20Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The article only mentions adults. Are their children at these meetings? > > Is there some sort of atheist sunday school? I belong to the same SA as **Brynda** , and yes, we are developing a program for kids and teens. I’ve been involved with that side a little. The program for the kids works in some science (we have an elementary school science teacher who has a lot of input with that), art, some music, etc so, yes, kind of like Sunday school without the god stuff. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/67 "2015-06-02T18:06:10Z")
> [@The\_Angry\_Badger](#): > > In England, there does need to be some sort of official… As I mentioned, I think he does more funerals than weddings, and I’m pretty sure you don’t need a religious-like service to die. It’s just something that people want. Humanist Celebrants have experience doing that sort of service, and can relied on not to wander off into discussions of God while doing it. I think he does baby namings, too. I don’t know that atheists have a “church shaped hole” in them, but i think humans like to mark major events, and many places churches have a near monopoly that. Humanist Celebrants offer an alternative. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/68 "2015-06-02T20:45:20Z")
Speaking as a Catholic who DID read the article… First, as I’ve noted before, I’d have thought the one and only clear benefit of atheism is that you DON’T have to wake up early on Sundays and attend rituals! Sometimes, I think it would be GREAT to sleep late, or go fishing, or put on a pot of coffee and read the Sunday papers, or go out to brunch, or go do something fun with my son. Why would anyone abandon God but keep going to Sunday meetings? Sounds like throwing away the baby but clinging to the bathwater! Second, it’s interesting to see the different approaches being taken by the atheist author and the atheists she’s writing so condescendingly about. It’s also interesting that SHE chooses to compare atheists to gays. If atheists are widely unpopular, what should they do? Try to convince everyone that they’re really nice and not really so different from their religious neighbors? Or get down and dirty and make war on societal norms? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/69 "2015-06-02T21:05:08Z")
> [@Brynda](#): > > It’s been wonderful to be with people who I can volunteer with, or have brunch with, or have a picnic with, who don’t say Obama’s name with a sneer in their voice, and who don’t ask me what church I attend. Hell, if that’s all you want, that’s easy to find in the South. Just join an Episcopalian or ELCA (Lutheran) congregation ;). I have to convince people that my ELCA congregation is actually fine with Republicans (though may have to hear a prayer or two in the middle of the church service for the Supreme Court to rule for gay marriage this Summer). ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/70 "2015-06-03T00:09:57Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Hell, if that’s all you want, that’s easy to find in the South. Just join an Episcopalian or ELCA (Lutheran) congregation ;). I have to convince people that my ELCA congregation is actually fine with Republicans (though may have to hear a prayer or two in the middle of the church service for the Supreme Court to rule for gay marriage this Summer). God and an average age of 82. Sounds like a match.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/71 "2015-06-03T02:14:04Z")
> [@missred](#): > > God and an average age of 82. Sounds like a match.:rolleyes: In my part of the ELCA we call those “Q-tip Congregations”. You look out and all you see are these white-topped sticks in the pews. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/72 "2015-06-03T03:56:26Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > First, as I’ve noted before, I’d have thought the one and only clear benefit of atheism is that you DON’T have to wake up early on Sundays and attend rituals! Yes. But the clear downside is that you don’t have the same sort of community relationships that churchgoers do. Sundays make sense because most people are off work (thanks to you god-squadders ;)) and the assemblies make sense because you get to hang out with like-minded people. I’ve been thinking about doing something like this myself, not really for the fellowship but for the professional development opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/73 "2015-06-03T05:16:25Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m not sure what SA is, and the only thing that comes up on google for “SA atheism” is a group in Australia. > > Again, I am torn on the idea of “atheist social organizations.” I see the point and the social/civic need. OTOH, I am so tired of the “atheism == religion” notion, even or especially in the expressions of people who should know better, that I am leery of anything that looks like a “Church of Atheism.” > > I also don’t have much patience with angry, strident Atheists. Like all skeptical positions, a relaxed attitude in everyday life goes a lot further than a chin-out, chip-on-shoulder challenge to every perceived slight. It becomes like trying to share a dinner table with an ardent, hard-line feminist who won’t let the slightest nuance of sexist language pass without diatribe. If you’re an honest gender-equality type, or a true a-theist, the rabid ones are just an embarrassment. That’s why I’m so insistent on the message of “atheist: means I don’t play the game _at all_” over religious-peer type debates. Not to be overly snarky, but you seem to enjoy making judgments about what other people do on Sunday morning, which is a quality I usually associate with the religious. And based on your participation in this thread, you seem to enjoy discussing atheist issues, atheism in the news, and strategies for promoting atheism in society. So maybe you’d be a better candidate for “atheist church” than you think! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/74 "2015-06-03T13:03:57Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Not to be overly snarky, but you seem to enjoy making judgments about what other people do on Sunday morning, which is a quality I usually associate with the religious. And based on your participation in this thread, you seem to enjoy discussing atheist issues, atheism in the news, and strategies for promoting atheism in society. So maybe you’d be a better candidate for “atheist church” than you think! 😉 Not to be overly dismissive, but the “if you hate it so much why do you spend so much time arguing about it” ploy is pretty high-school debate club. However, you’re misreading my arguments anyway. I don’t care what people do on Sunday morning (or pretty much any other time) as long as it doesn’t bother me directly. My OP was about the nonsense-filled and high profile piece in the NYT, which led to supporting arguments about “atheists” who have to make a big production of going to not-church. It’s the act, not the actions. ---
**Author:** ![Teach-me-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a4c791/32.png) [@Teach-me-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach-me-not)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/75 "2015-06-03T15:01:33Z")
A disappointing and cringe-inducing piece. [QUOTE=Molly Worthen] Some activists call it a movement — and if it is, then it’s a movement grounded in ideas, despite what Ms. Reed says. [/QUOTE] Um, if it is a movement, then it’s a movement grounded in ideas. What a clumsy sentence! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The average nonbeliever may know even less about his tradition’s intellectual debates than the average Christian does — because its institutions, like Sunday Assembly, tend to be tiny, relatively new and allergic to anything that resembles dogma BS. I’m generalising here, but atheists are incredibly self-aware. They know not only their own intellectual tradition, but also the religious traditions better than the believers. And nonbelievers are allergic to dogma, so they know less about their intellectual traditions? What logic is this? :dubious: > [@](#): > > As nonbelievers tangle with traditional Christians over same-sex marriage Did she say “_tangle_ with traditional Christians”? (reads again) Yes, she did. Ha ha, _tangle_. Really? Darnit, I can’t stop laughing now. > [@](#): > > they will need a confident humanist moral philosophy. The secular humanist liberation movement, in its zeal to win over religious America, should not encourage nonbelievers to turn away from their own intellectual heritage at the time when they will want it most. In the second half of the article, the author grossly misrepresents the nonbelievers as straying from the hallowed intellectual tradition, just so that she can close with a pseudo-prescient bs about the importance of the intellectual tradition. Finally, when the author says “when the nonbelievers will want the intellectual heritage the most”, when exactly is that? ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/76 "2015-06-03T16:17:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > what benefit does a rabbi confer over going to a justice the peace? Best way to get a Jewish wedding. But you don’t need atheist quasi-clergy for a non-religious wedding. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/77 "2015-06-03T16:18:50Z")
> [@The\_Angry\_Badger](#): > > … It’s a bit like having a Society of People Who Don’t Like Football, … I kind of like this idea. Especially during playoffs. And we have a Big 10 team as the Packers up the road, so Saturdays are just as dead as Sundays. There should be plenty of places abnormally empty facilities that could be used by enthusiasts guring game time. Like bowling alleys! Except I don’t like bowling either. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/78 "2015-06-03T16:23:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes. But the clear downside is that you don’t have the same sort of community relationships that churchgoers do. Sundays make sense because most people are off work (thanks to you god-squadders ;)) and the assemblies make sense because you get to hang out with like-minded people. I’ve been thinking about doing something like this myself, not really for the fellowship but for the professional development opportunities. But there’s no reason to assume an atheist has any of the qualities you want in a friend. Why go to a meeting of atheists? Why not go to a meeting of people who are interested in one of your favorite activities? Could be a cooking club, a golfers’ club, a chess club, a Game of Thrones fan club, a theater group, whatever. A shared interest is a great basis for friendship and community. A shared NON-interest? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/79 "2015-06-03T16:56:19Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Not to be overly dismissive, but the “if you hate it so much why do you spend so much time arguing about it” ploy is pretty high-school debate club. > > However, you’re misreading my arguments anyway. I don’t care what people do on Sunday morning (or pretty much any other time) as long as it doesn’t bother me directly. My OP was about the nonsense-filled and high profile piece in the NYT, which led to supporting arguments about “atheists” who have to make a big production of going to not-church. It’s the act, not the actions. It’s somewhat more on point when what you’re discussing IS the high school debate club. If you’re in high school and spend a lot of time debating the merits of the debate club (or anything else), then…well, you might like the debate club. I’m a member of an atheist group, and we spend about equal time socializing (which you’ve said you like) and having discussions like this one, including ones on the very topic of whether we should do something like SA. Admittedly in SA itself that precise topic is rather decided, but I imagine they have similar debates about their direction. I think you’re confusing the article with the thing its reporting on. I don’t think the SA members are “making a big production” out of going to a quasi-church except to the extent that they’re not holding their services in secret. The reporter is turning it into an act, as you say, because that’s what reporters do. In reality, my experience is that the atheists who are most interested in something like SA are those who are _least_ “militant,” including myself. I used to like goign to church when I was a believer, and I miss it. But you seem either bothered by or incredulous of the idea that some atheists might want to attend something like SA just for its own sake. If you don’t want to go, don’t go, but don’t expect me to forego it just because it conflicts with YOUR political message. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256/80 "2015-06-03T17:08:57Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Best way to get a Jewish wedding. But you don’t need atheist quasi-clergy for a non-religious wedding. You don’t need one, but if you want someone experienced in organizing and officiating at wedding ceremonies who you know won’t start mentioning God during the ceremony, it might be the best way to get a non-religious wedding. A JP might be more used to officiating for people who don’t want a ceremony, and might be used to people who do request a ceremony also wanting God mentioned (even if civil ceremonies are supposed to be secular). > [@astorian](#): > > But there’s no reason to assume an atheist has any of the qualities you want in a friend. Why go to a meeting of atheists? Why not go to a meeting of people who are interested in one of your favorite activities? Could be a cooking club, a golfers’ club, a chess club, a Game of Thrones fan club, a theater group, whatever. A shared interest is a great basis for friendship and community. A shared NON-interest? Not so much. That sounds right in theory, but I can tell you that in practice I have a lot in common with other people who are interested in joining an atheist community group. Is that entirely a coincidence? Maybe, but it’s still true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-piece-on-the-religion-of-atheism/721256.md?page=5)