# NY Times - Trump helped parents use fraud to dodge taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338 "2018-10-02T21:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/21 "2018-10-03T02:41:34Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Seems like an insane amount of time just to basically show Trump lied about taxes. No one will get in trouble, no one is getting impeached, his base doesn’t care, people like me know rich people try to legally and illegally skirt paying taxes. > > I suppose I know some details, but tax details are boring. Maybe I’m just too used to our President being involved with porn stars and Russians. They got 200 tax returns and 100,000 pages of documents, so it wasn’t exactly a weekend assignment. Plus lots of interviews. Glad they took time to do it right. If Trump lied on his federal returns, he certainly also lied on his state returns. And it looks like NY is on the case. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/22 "2018-10-03T02:43:56Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > remember when talking about jail there is still the question of whether a president can be indicted. > > also can he be impeached for crimes before he took office? Probably not, but a juicy $100 million fine would be nice. Especially if he can’t pay it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/23 "2018-10-03T02:45:53Z")
The story from his lawyer is that Trump knew nothing, knew nothing, and his relatives and tax accountants are to blame. I don’t think that excuse is going to keep him from a fine, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/24 "2018-10-03T05:03:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The story from his lawyer is that Trump knew nothing, knew nothing, and his relatives and tax accountants are to blame. Gosh, for someone who is very smart and only hires the best people, he sure does seem to end up employing hordes of fuckups and sleazeballs. Is a puzzlement. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/25 "2018-10-03T09:59:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The story from his lawyer is that Trump knew nothing, knew nothing, and his relatives and tax accountants are to blame. > I don’t think that excuse is going to keep him from a fine, though. There’s a reason the feds are talking to Cohen and Weisselbrg. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/26 "2018-10-03T10:15:44Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Probably not, but a juicy $100 million fine would be nice. Especially if he can’t pay it. And Trump Tower and Mar-A-Lago get seized instead. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/27 "2018-10-03T11:03:40Z")
the docs says he “earned” money at age 3. the whole family is just a bunch of con artists. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/28 "2018-10-03T11:13:59Z")
> [@andros](#): > > There’s no precedent (ha!) for impeaching a President for activities occurring before taking office. The specification of ‘high crimes and misdemeanours’ doesn’t limit itself to offences in offices, does it? There are a lot of people hereabouts who would like to see him caught. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/29 "2018-10-03T11:14:31Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > “Trump said numerous times as a presidential candidate that he had received the “very small” $1 million loan from his father. But the newspaper’s investigation found that [Trump had actually been lent at least $60.7 million](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/02/trumps-small-loan-from-his-father-was-more-like-60point7-million-nyt.html). The article claims the Trump family committed “instances of outright fraud,” with the president himself receiving today’s equivalent of $413 million from the real estate holdings of his father, the Times reported while citing 100,000 documents and interviews with former family associates.” > [New York state tax department reviewing fraud allegations involving Trump in NYT article](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/02/new-york-state-tax-department-reviewing-fraud-allegations-involving-trump-in-nyt-article.html) > I sure hope this is some real shit, and they nail the bastard to the fucking wall. But it would probably just amount to Trump paying fines, right? If so, I hope they’re some real fucking fines. It would be wonderful if the failing New York Times stuck it to Trump. > But I’m not going to get excited. Not till I hear handcuffs clicking. > (Wait, I should rephrase that. That sounded weird.) Does the IRS only fine the person who under-reported their income (or mis-reported, or however we classify this)? Don’t they also seek the taxes they were owed, plus interest? Probably still not enough to cripple Trump, but it would certainly get his attention. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/30 "2018-10-03T11:33:31Z")
Politically, it probably helps him. To his adoring base, they’ll see this: [ul] [li]So he paid less money to those liberals in New York? Bully for him![/li][li]Less money to the government so they can give it to illegals? Sweet liberal tears![/li][li]Of course he cheats on taxes! That’s what smart businessmen do.[/li][li]Oh yeah? What about Al Sharpton? I hear he owes millions in taxes and he’s not in jail![/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/31 "2018-10-03T11:48:00Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > Does the IRS only fine the person who under-reported their income (or mis-reported, or however we classify this)? Don’t they also seek the taxes they were owed, plus interest? Probably still not enough to cripple Trump, but it would certainly get his attention. I dunno. I’d like it if someone did the math, but it certainly sounds like he evaded hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes going back decades. With interest that could be a significant fraction of his wealth. While it would be good for schadenfreude, I would be somewhat concerned about his reaction to such a fine. Ignore it? Shut down that office? Remove sanction on Russia for a personal cash gift? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/32 "2018-10-03T12:19:57Z")
According to the [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/opinion/donald-trump-tax-fraud-fred.html): > [@](#): > > As an in-depth investigation by The Times has revealed, Mr. Trump is only self-made if you don’t count the massive financial rewards he received from his father’s business beginning as a toddler. (By age 3, little Donald was reportedly pulling in an annual income of what today would be $200,000 a year.) These benefits included not only the usual perks of hailing from a rich, well-connected family — the connections, the access to credit, the built-in safety net. For the Trumps, it also involved direct cash gifts and tens of millions in “loans” that never charged interest or had to be repaid. Fred Trump even purchased several properties and business ventures, putting ownership either fully or partly in the names of his children, who reaped the profits. > > As Donald Trump emerged as the favorite son, Fred made special deals and arrangements to increase Donald’s fortunes in particular. The Times found that, before Donald had turned 30, he had received close to $9 million from his father. Over the longer haul, he received upward of what, in today’s dollars, would be $413 million. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/33 "2018-10-03T13:15:55Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The specification of ‘high crimes and misdemeanours’ doesn’t limit itself to offences in offices, does it? There are a lot of people hereabouts who would like to see him caught. That’s the sticking point. The plain text does not specify, while the intent of some Founders arguably tends toward “while in office.” Without a clear interpretation from SCOTUS, I’d go with the default position that Congress can do what they like. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/34 "2018-10-03T14:10:09Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That’s the sticking point. The plain text does not specify, while the intent of some Founders arguably tends toward “while in office.” Without a clear interpretation from SCOTUS, I’d go with the default position that\*\* Congress can do what they like\*\*. Which will be nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/35 "2018-10-03T14:15:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The story from his lawyer is that Trump knew nothing, knew nothing, and his relatives and tax accountants are to blame. > I don’t think that excuse is going to keep him from a fine, though. But surely he realizes ( well, maybe not ), that even if that is completely true and he was completely innocent in the fraud - he still owes the money as well as the interest on the money. So, since the statute of limitations is up, it makes no difference except to his reputation. So it makes no difference. This is lesson many of my friends learned the hard way. A neighbor of mine thought it was “too good to be true” when her monthly common charges on her condo went down at a time when everyone else’s went up. So she decided to be quiet and not question it. Five years later the accounting mistake was discovered and she owed the building several thousand dollars. She requested a payment plan and got them to waive the interest but she was still undisputedly on the hook. Same thing happened with a friend of mine that had a government job - her pension contributions were miscalculated and she ended up owing a lot of money ( with interest ) to her pension fund. And she was indisputably on the hook for it. It’s a hard fact of finance and life. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/36 "2018-10-03T14:46:36Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Which will be nothing at all. Unless we change congress for their 3 monkey act. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/37 "2018-10-03T15:27:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The specification of ‘high crimes and misdemeanours’ doesn’t limit itself to offences in offices, does it? There are a lot of people hereabouts who would like to see him caught. Well, technically, yes, it should be limited to things that happen in office. “High crimes and misdemeanors” does not mean “really serious criminal offenses.” They don’t have to be crimes at all, in fact. A “high crime” is an offense a person in public office makes that is specific to them being the holder of that office, whereby they don’t do their job properly. If Donald Trump cheated the IRS before he was President, that is certainly a crime, but it is not a high crime because it wasn’t related to a failure to execute his job as President. High crimes are things like taking bribes, misusing public funds, stuff like that - things particular to abusing the office. Literally refusing to do the job at all would be a high crime. Having said all that, no matter what “high crime” meant when they wrot the Constitution, a President could be impeached for anything at all; Congress decides what it means. As the Republicans will never vote to impeach or convict Trump for anything, it’s irrelevant; he cannot possibly be convicted even after the midterms (the Republicans will have more than a third of the Senate no matter how badly they do.) If somehow the Democrats had 67 seats in the Senate and a majority in the House, they’d impeach him for being an asshole. Nothing prevents either impeaching for any reason at all, or refusing to impeach even if he obviously deserves it. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/38 "2018-10-03T16:34:40Z")
What sort of financial liability are his siblings looking at? And how far does family loyalty go with the Trumps? ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/39 "2018-10-03T16:59:23Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > the docs says he “earned” money at age 3. the whole family is just a bunch of con artists. Yeah, that sounds about right. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/40 "2018-10-03T18:07:59Z")
Can a presidential pardon forgive fines levied by the IRS? Some of them, all of them, or none of them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338.md?page=3)