# NY Times - Trump helped parents use fraud to dodge taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338 "2018-10-02T21:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/41 "2018-10-03T18:51:58Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That’s the sticking point. The plain text does not specify, while the intent of some Founders arguably tends toward “while in office.” Without a clear interpretation from SCOTUS, I’d go with the default position that Congress can do what they like. Spiro Agnew’s actions for which he was accused occurred before he became Vice President. Was there talk of impeachment for him then? I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/42 "2018-10-03T19:02:56Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Spiro Agnew’s actions for which he was accused occurred before he became Vice President. Was there talk of impeachment for him then? I don’t remember. Agnew requested that the House start impeachment proceedings (hoping to clear his name) but was denied by the Speaker. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/43 "2018-10-03T21:15:33Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > What sort of financial liability are his siblings looking at? And how far does family loyalty go with the Trumps? Pressure may be brought to bear on Trump’s sister Maryanne, an inactive federal judge: > [@](#): > > Maryanne Trump Barry, the sister of President Donald Trump, is a senior judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit, based in Philadelphia. In June 2011, the now 81-year-old Barry took senior status, a form of semi-retirement that still allows judges to hear and rule on cases. > > … It may be the case that inactive senior status means a judge has already “left” the bench. But if it does not, impeachment remains a possible threat to any federal judge. > **[Trump's sister in spotlight after NY Times' investigation of family's finances](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/ny-times-financial-investigation-trump-raises-questions-about-his-sister-n916236)** > > Analysis: Maryanne Trump Barry, an inactive federal judge, is mentioned throughout the report, which uncovered questionable tax schemes. …So it’s possible that the first Trump to be impeached won’t be Donald. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/44 "2018-10-03T21:23:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “High crimes and misdemeanors” does not mean “really serious criminal offenses.” They don’t have to be crimes at all, in fact. A “high crime” is an offense a person in public office makes that is specific to them being the holder of that office, whereby they don’t do their job properly. > > \ > > Having said all that, no matter what “high crime” meant when they wrot the Constitution, a President could be impeached for anything at all; Congress decides what it means. Do you have a cite about the erstwhile or current definition of “high crime?” Back in seventh grade (in a USAian school, to be sure, but it WAS a private school), when I was introduced to the term, I was told that it was an alternative term for “felony.” The impression I came away with was that a “high crime” could be committed by _anyone_. Not meaning to call you out; I’m merely asking for justification to discard a cherished belief from my childhood. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/45 "2018-10-03T21:50:48Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Spiro Agnew’s actions for which he was accused occurred before he became Vice President. Was there talk of impeachment for him then? I don’t remember. > [@jasg](#): > > Agnew requested that the House start impeachment proceedings (hoping to clear his name) but was denied by the Speaker. Agnew did apparently take the position that a sitting Vice President could not be indicted. He is also reported to have requested that Carl Albert, then Speaker of the House, initiate an investigation (since Albert was right behind Agnew in the line of Presidential succession, one supposes that this could have the appearance of being self-serving), which Albert declined to do. The question of Vice Presidential indictment validity aside, it did not stop the presentment of a criminal charge, to which Agnew pleaded no contest forty-four years and fifty-one weeks ago today. [Cite.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Agnew#Criminal_investigation_and_resignation) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/46 "2018-10-03T23:12:15Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I would think this would be easy to prove with the money trail. The self made man thing was so obviously bullshit, that anyone who believed it before will still believe it now. I am killing myself that I cannot find it now but earlier today I saw something where Susanne Craig (one of the reporters who worked on this) said it was “beyond hard” to piece together what they did. NYT employees are motivated. IRS employees are not. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/47 "2018-10-03T23:31:57Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > …Not meaning to call you out; I’m merely asking for justification to discard a cherished belief from my childhood. As I understand it, the word “high” in “high crimes and misdemeanors” affects both nouns, “crimes” and “misdemeanors”. That means we are talking about a “higher” level of seriousness, more than an individual crime because the subject is in a position of trust and power. What might be a relatively trivial matter for an ordinary guy is a “high misdemeanor” for a President, and demands more serious concern. Also, by this wording, they cover things that might not be strictly illegal, but are nonetheless a breach of public trust. Thus, had Trump ever done any such thing, he might be impeached. Anyway, that’s the theory. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/48 "2018-10-03T23:56:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Thus, had Trump ever done any such thing, he might be impeached. Anyway, that’s the theory. That or, as **Bricker** and others have pointed out here many times, the president can be impeached for any damn thing thing House wants because there is no real definition of what constitutes a “high crime or misdemeanor” and there is no one to appeal to if you think they got it wrong. As a political matter they will generally need more than saying they do not like his haircut but as a legal matter they can impeach because they do not like his haircut. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/49 "2018-10-04T00:03:19Z")
The Republican party is seriously just going to try to ignore this. I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/50 "2018-10-04T00:10:03Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The Republican party is seriously just going to try to ignore this. I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am. Consider all the things about Trump they have already ignored. At this point I would be surprised if they didn’t ignore something he did. His supporters probably chalk this up to him being smart for not paying the evil taxman cuz screw the taxman! ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/51 "2018-10-04T05:40:00Z")
When Trump steps down as president, probably after the 2020 election, then the shit will hit the fan. I won’t be surprised if he spends the rest of his life in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/52 "2018-10-04T14:51:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Can a presidential pardon forgive fines levied by the IRS? Some of them, all of them, or none of them? Repeating the question. Does any here know? Maybe I should start a new thread, but knowing the answer to this seems very pertinent to the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/53 "2018-10-04T15:05:21Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Repeating the question. Does any here know? Maybe I should start a new thread, but knowing the answer to this seems very pertinent to the topic at hand. I am not anything in any like a lawyer, but I expect that the president could not forgive what is owed to the government, but he could pardon anyone charged with any criminal consequences for not paying. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/54 "2018-10-04T16:44:55Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > I am not anything in any like a lawyer, but I expect that the president could not forgive what is owed to the government, but he could pardon anyone charged with any criminal consequences for not paying. Right, but are IRS fines criminal? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/55 "2018-10-04T22:08:27Z")
Whether Trump is liable for this money or impeachable for tax evasion almost seems beside the point. IMO the big news here is that Mueller now has a much better picture of the motive connecting Trump’s campaign with Russian interference. As with Watergate, follow the money – and here’s a whole stinking pile of it. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/56 "2018-10-04T22:53:44Z")
Well, I’m hoping for the trifecta of removal from office, impoverishment, and lifetime of jail. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/57 "2018-10-04T23:11:16Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > It is very hard to get jail time over taxes. The government needs to absolutely prove your state of mind that you knew that you were filing false tax returns showing a lower liability than you actually knew you had, and not just that you used some shady methods recommended by some shady lawyers and accountants to help you pay less tax that you really don’t know anything about. People that generally have those people in between can generally show some sort of ignorance, if only feigned, that what they were doing was not legal, and proving that they knew it was illegal generally requires an affirmative statement from them to that effect. > > There is a statute of limitations for income taxes on misstatements not arising from fraud, at least federally, up to 6 years if the misstatement was over 25% of total income. There is no statute of limitations on fraudulent underreporting of income, but again, that fraud has to be proven in court. This is the civil standard, not criminal as in the above paragraph, so isn’t quite as hard, but it’s still hard, often due to lack of evidence. [How Far Back Can IRS Claim Tax Evasion Or Fraud? Timing Is Everything](https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/10/13/how-far-back-can-irs-claim-tax-evasion-or-fraud-timing-is-everything/#75efdf752c24) Just answering questions by quoting myself. No need to pay attention to me, ever. Do people want more explanations, or am I just shadowbanned? ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/58 "2018-10-04T23:14:13Z")
Ok, i guess the question is if he can pardon himself out of back taxes. No, of course not. Back taxes are not crimes. Evading taxes is the crime, and serving a sentence for that is completely separate from paying what you owe. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/59 "2018-10-05T00:01:48Z")
My question is whether a President can pardon non-criminal fines levied by the IRS. That is, under what conditions do or do not IRS fines constitute a pardonable “offense against the United States”? ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/60 "2018-10-05T00:48:38Z")
I’m not worried that much about what he does about his federal taxes because New York is going after his state taxes. Even if Kavanaugh is confirmed and the court this session rules that pursuing state AND federal charges separately are, in effect, double jeopardy, it’ll be New York state law violations that are not congruent with Federal Tax Code violations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338.md?page=4)