# NY Times - Trump helped parents use fraud to dodge taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338 "2018-10-02T21:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/61 "2018-10-05T01:34:25Z")
Don’t rightly know what is meant by this “congruent” stuff, but it sounds vaguely disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/62 "2018-10-05T13:17:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, technically, yes, it should be limited to things that happen in office. > > “High crimes and misdemeanors” does not mean “really serious criminal offenses.” They don’t have to be crimes at all, in fact. A “high crime” is an offense a person in public office makes that is specific to them being the holder of that office, whereby they don’t do their job properly. If Donald Trump cheated the IRS before he was President, that is certainly a crime, but it is not a high crime because it wasn’t related to a failure to execute his job as President. > > High crimes are things like taking bribes, misusing public funds, stuff like that - things particular to abusing the office. Literally refusing to do the job at all would be a high crime. I disagree. If that is the test, then Donald Trump can commit murder with impunity, given that the DOJ takes the view that a sitting president cannot be indicted for federal crimes. Suppose Trump and Melania are staying overnight at his Washington Hotel, and she teases him about his … small hands. Enraged, he strangles her to death. That’s got nothing to do with his office. They’re not on federal property, he’s not carrying out any presidential duties, it’s just a case of spousal murder. But DC is not part of a state, so there’s no state law involved. The DC murder statute is a federal law. He can’t be indicted, because the DOJ takes the view that a sitting president can’t be indicted. And, if he’s immune from impeachment because murder is’t a “high crime”, then he just continues in office. Conduct in office is more than just carrying out official duties. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/63 "2018-10-05T13:29:01Z")
Should a president commit murder in a DC hotel, I believe the DOJ would make an exception to their “can’t indict a president” policy. Policies are not handcuffs, they are merely blueprints for behavior in normal situations. If the DOJ would not indict, there would be a quick impeachment and then the agonizing trial in the Senate, in which Susan Collins would express deep anguish but wind up toeing the GOP line as she always does. I would like to see the Donald in the orange jumpsuit and handcuffs being sent off to do hard time. As much as I oppose capital punishment, a part of me hopes that is his fate. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/64 "2018-10-05T15:58:51Z")
a president cannot overturn a civil case verdict . If the fine is civil I assume he cannot do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/65 "2018-10-08T12:32:11Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I would think this would be easy to prove with the money trail. The self made man thing was so obviously bullshit, that anyone who believed it before will still believe it now. 😕 I assume the Trump base will _approve_ of the tax fraud. It will demonstrate that their man is smart and that he, like them, hates paying taxes. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/66 "2018-10-08T12:48:53Z")
Yes, the regime will have to make an example of Trump. The mirage of stability and competence is a key ingredient for tax collection. “Security consultant and ex-National Security Agency (NSA) employee, John Schindler said he had received an email from a senior intelligence agent discussing the President. It opened with the words: “He will die in jail”, he said.“ > **[Spies 'ready to go nuclear' against Trump over Russia ties](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-intelligence-community-ready-go-nuclear-donald-trump-russia-nsa-a7585926.html)** > > US President 'will die in jail,' says former National Security Agency employee, John Schindler ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/67 "2018-10-08T12:51:15Z")
It’s amazing that the press is running with the “Trump had his best week ever” in a week where it was revealed that his entire reason for being president based on being a smart businessman was actually a handout from his dad combined with stealing money from the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/68 "2018-10-08T12:53:24Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > It’s amazing that the press is running with the “Trump had his best week ever” in a week where it was revealed that his entire reason for being president based on being a smart businessman was actually a handout from his dad combined with stealing money from the rest of us. Yes maybe it would have had a greater impact if they hadn’t been saying it for three years. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/69 "2018-10-08T12:56:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Should a president commit murder in a DC hotel, I believe the DOJ would make an exception to their “can’t indict a president” policy. Policies are not handcuffs, they are merely blueprints for behavior in normal situations. If the DOJ would not indict, there would be a quick impeachment and then the agonizing trial in the Senate, in which Susan Collins would express deep anguish but wind up toeing the GOP line as she always does. > I would like to see the Donald in the orange jumpsuit and handcuffs being sent off to do hard time. As much as I oppose capital punishment, a part of me hopes that is his fate. Seems like an appropriate punishment… for his activities in Yemen. I wonder if you had the same fantasies for the butchers Bush II and Obama. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/70 "2018-10-08T14:12:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Seems like an appropriate punishment… for his activities in Yemen. I wonder if you had the same fantasies for the butchers Bush II and Obama. Bush was a stooge and a fool, but I never suspected he was a criminal. Obama of course had sterling character and will be remembered as the first great president of the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/71 "2018-10-13T16:27:43Z")
> **[Jared Kushner Paid No Federal Income Tax for Years, Documents Suggest...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/13/business/jared-kushner-taxes.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes&smid=nytcore-ios-share)** > > Confidential documents reviewed by The Times indicate that Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law and adviser, probably paid little or no income tax from 2009 to 2016. and Kushner not paying taxes lately ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/72 "2018-10-13T19:13:13Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/13/business/jared-kushner-taxes.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes&smid=nytcore-ios-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/13/business/jared-kushner-taxes.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes&smid=nytcore-ios-share) > > and Kushner not paying taxes lately This and the Trump article are really evidence of how left the media is and why they fail to get the attention of a large portion of the country. As this article says, there are legal routes to reduce your tax down to something negligible. **That is legal** and the only reason to not do it (beyond patriotism), if you’re smart, is because you can’t afford the financiers to allow it to happen. In business, if my competitor is selling widgets for $10 and I’m selling them for $12, because I have decided to not take advantage of the tax loopholes that the government has afforded me, when my competitor has, then I simply don’t sell any widgets because why buy a $12 widget when you can buy a $10 widget? My business shuts down and everyone is laid off. The government loses all the income tax that they would have been earning off of my employees. Everyone loses. This isn’t to say that there _shouldn’t_ be taxes that businesses pay (though, that is debatable), but it’s not bad for an individual business to be avoiding paying taxes when it is perfectly in their rights to do so. In the case of the Trump article, there was a genuine newsworthy topic of malfeasance - self-dealing, in order to commit fraud. And that ended up buried under a bunch of stuff that was shady but legit. That should have been the full article. There should then have been a second article talking about the question of whether real estate tax laws, and the IRS review process, are reasonable. And there you might focus on all of the dirty tricks that Trump and Kushner have used. But you would also mention why the laws exist - whether they were just lobbied for and approved by corrupt politicians, or if this is a matter that you don’t want to tax peoples’ retirement nest egg and real estate is often how people go about securing their retirement? You should have an open and honest discussion about what’s reasonable, what’s corrupt, and whether there are real strategies. As is, the Kushner article is just a lot of, “Hey, look, he did something legal and smart. Damn him.” Great. Why is this news? What’s the context under which you are damning him if, as you yourself say, everything was on the up-and-up and complete legit? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/73 "2018-10-13T21:50:24Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > This and the Trump article are really evidence of how left the media is and why they fail to get the attention of a large portion of the country. > > As this article says, there are legal routes to reduce your tax down to something negligible. **That is legal** and the only reason to not do it (beyond patriotism), if you’re smart, is because you can’t afford the financiers to allow it to happen. > > In business, if my competitor is selling widgets for $10 and I’m selling them for $12, because I have decided to not take advantage of the tax loopholes that the government has afforded me, when my competitor has, then I simply don’t sell any widgets because why buy a $12 widget when you can buy a $10 widget? My business shuts down and everyone is laid off. The government loses all the income tax that they would have been earning off of my employees. Everyone loses. > > This isn’t to say that there _shouldn’t_ be taxes that businesses pay (though, that is debatable), but it’s not bad for an individual business to be avoiding paying taxes when it is perfectly in their rights to do so. > > In the case of the Trump article, there was a genuine newsworthy topic of malfeasance - self-dealing, in order to commit fraud. And that ended up buried under a bunch of stuff that was shady but legit. That should have been the full article. > > There should then have been a second article talking about the question of whether real estate tax laws, and the IRS review process, are reasonable. And there you might focus on all of the dirty tricks that Trump and Kushner have used. But you would also mention why the laws exist - whether they were just lobbied for and approved by corrupt politicians, or if this is a matter that you don’t want to tax peoples’ retirement nest egg and real estate is often how people go about securing their retirement? You should have an open and honest discussion about what’s reasonable, what’s corrupt, and whether there are real strategies. > > As is, the Kushner article is just a lot of, “Hey, look, he did something legal and smart. Damn him.” Great. Why is this news? What’s the context under which you are damning him if, as you yourself say, everything was on the up-and-up and complete legit? You’re certainly not wrong about the need to point out that many of the rich who pay no taxes are legally taking advantage of provisions in the tax code that favor them, and that this should receive more emphasis (as opposed to the ‘oh, look at these rich crooks’ message, which is misleading). I’d argue that there are journalists and politicians pointing out that the issue is the way those in power can and do rig the system to benefit themselves. But it’s still useful to take note of the raw fact that Jared Kushner (for example) pays little or no income tax, because it’s another way to highlight the sheer bad argumentation used by the right. We all recall this gem from the 2012 presidential campaign: > [@](#): > > These are people who pay no income tax. … I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. [Romney's contempt for the '47 percent'](http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/romneys-contempt-the-47-percent) Embarrassing! Of course Mitt did NOT mean people like Jared Kushner…he meant those darker-skinned folks. Awkward that he said it, though. It was a bad argument then, and its application now is fair-if-inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/74 "2018-10-13T22:32:47Z")
NY real estate person Leona Helmsley said that taxes are for little people , not rich folks like her. and then she went to prison for tax fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/75 "2018-10-13T22:35:39Z")
Trump and his siblings do appear to be like the late unlamented Ms. Helmsley in having committed actual tax fraud. I’m not sure the same can be said for Kushner, but I’m all for investigation into him to continue. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/76 "2018-10-13T23:18:26Z")
Kushner’s father was convicted of Tax fraud and the prosecutor was a guy named Chris Christie. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/77 "2018-10-14T20:17:22Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Trump and his siblings do appear to be like the late unlamented Ms. Helmsley in having committed actual tax fraud. > > I’m not sure the same can be said for Kushner, but I’m all for investigation into him to continue. On an individual level, I Hope Kushner committed fraud so that his smug useless face ends up in prison. But, it’s a larger issue that this shit appears to be entirely legal. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/78 "2018-10-14T20:56:35Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > On an individual level, I Hope Kushner committed fraud so that his smug useless face ends up in prison. But, it’s a larger issue that this shit appears to be entirely legal. But doesn’t this come over the limit of tax free gifts (I think it’s 10g). Did Trumps father set up some sort of corporation in Donald’s name when he was 10 years old? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/79 "2018-10-15T04:15:17Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > When Trump steps down as president, probably after the 2020 election, then the shit will hit the fan. I won’t be surprised if he spends the rest of his life in prison. We can only hope, can’t we? I personally think that if/when Dumpster gets the ax, he’ll commit suicide rather than step down. Most people disagree with me, and that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338/80 "2018-10-15T11:18:27Z")
> [@](#): > > The White House last year championed a sweeping revision of the nation’s tax laws that expanded many of the benefits enjoyed by real estate investors, allowing them to reap even larger deductions. Nope, nothing to see here. It’s all perfectly legal. > [@](#): > > In 2015, for example, Mr. Kushner took home $1.7 million in salary and investment gains. But those earnings were swamped by $8.3 million of losses, largely because of “significant depreciation” that Mr. Kushner and his company took on their real estate, according to the documents reviewed by The Times. Yeah, that’s fraud, even if it’s written into the tax code. If the properties did in fact appreciate in value and Kushner claimed depreciation, how in the fuck is that not corrected via audit? It’s nice we have affirmative action programs for the rich. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ny-times-trump-helped-parents-use-fraud-to-dodge-taxes/822338.md?page=5)