# NYC Democratic election official claims voter ID fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358 "2016-10-12T21:25:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/1 "2016-10-12T21:25:43Z")
OK, so apparently this guy [Alan Schulkin was caught on camera](http://nypost.com/2016/10/11/elections-official-caught-on-video-blasting-de-blasios-id-program/) by some conservative undercover reporter saying there was loads of voter fraud in NYC, busing people around from polling place from polling place. Naturally the conservative media are all over this story. Now, forgetting about whether this guy is in a position to know whether this is true or not, is this even possible? I’ve been voting in NY State all my adult life, and while I’ve never had to show ID, I’ve always had to give my name and address, and then sign in the appropriate line in a book, preventing me from voting more than once. Now, assuming they have access to a list of registered voters (which isn’t unheard of, since I get junk electioneering snail mail all the time), they’d also have to know what voters are \*\*not \*\*planning on voting, and then impersonate them, since I would assume that as soon as a bunch of voters found that their spaces in the voting rolls were already signed, there’d be hell to pay. So is this guy full of it? Or have these people figured out a way for multiple people to impersonate other voters without being found out? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/2 "2016-10-12T21:37:51Z")
It doesn’t look like [getting an NYC ID is any easier than getting a driver’s license](https://www1.nyc.gov/site/idnyc/card/documentation.page), so it sounds like he’s full of it. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/3 "2016-10-13T02:49:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It doesn’t look like [getting an NYC ID is any easier than getting a driver’s license](https://www1.nyc.gov/site/idnyc/card/documentation.page), so it sounds like he’s full of it. It’s actually pretty easy to get the NYCID. I got one, pretty much on a whim, because the city had set up a desk at the Brooklyn Public Library, and there I was, so I got one. I didn’t really need it (I have a passport, and a driver’s license, and other stuff, too). The requirements for the NYCID aren’t that stringent. They’ll accept high school diplomas, leases, student verifications (a public school thing), etc. Gather up enough of them and you can get the NYCID without a birth certificate, or a license, or a passport. That said, I’ve never heard that voter fraud (at least not the imposter kind) is a significant problem in New York. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/4 "2016-10-13T03:57:47Z")
> [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > OK, so apparently this guy [Alan Schulkin was caught on camera](http://nypost.com/2016/10/11/elections-official-caught-on-video-blasting-de-blasios-id-program/) by some conservative undercover reporter [snip] Not just some conservative undercover reporter, but James O’keefe, pathological liar of the undercover video world. [http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/james-okeefe-agrees-to-pay-100000-settlement-088620](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/james-okeefe-agrees-to-pay-100000-settlement-088620) > [@](#): > > Conservative activist James O’Keefe has agreed to pay $100,000 to a former employee of ACORN in National City, Calif., in order to settle a lawsuit, according to media reports and federal court documents. > > In the documents, O’Keefe says he “regrets any pain” he caused Juan Carlos Vera, who was surreptitiously interviewed by O’Keefe in August 2009, according to the Los Angeles Times. The video appears to show Vera agreeing to help O’Keefe and another activist, Hannah Giles, smuggle young girls into the Untied States to work as prostitutes. O’Keefe also admitted in the settlement he didn’t know Vera had contracted police after their conversation when he distributed the video. > **[Fake pimp from ACORN videos tries to 'punk' CNN correspondent - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/29/okeefe.cnn.prank/)** > > A conservative activist known for making undercover videos plotted to embarrass a CNN correspondent by recording a meeting on hidden cameras aboard a floating "palace of pleasure" and making sexually suggestive comments, e-mails and a planning... ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/5 "2016-10-13T11:21:23Z")
Sounds like a crock. I mean, you’d have to find someone who was registered to vote, but who doesn’t vote, and then vote in place of that person, right? For it to work? A poster here claimed that he showed up to vote once, and was refused because he was told that he had already voted. (Someone else voted in his name.) He never answered my question about what happened after he alerted the authorities about it. Because I’m here to tell you, if I am ever refused the right to vote because I’m told that I’ve already voted, Holy Hell will be raised right then and there! So I ain’t buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/6 "2016-10-13T11:58:50Z")
“He gave out ID cards, de Blasio. That’s in lieu of a driver’s license, but you can use it for anything,” Commissioner Alan Schulkin said in the undercover video recorded by a muckraker for conservative nonprofit **Project Veritas**. Emphasis mine. Project Veritas has pulled dishonest stunts like this before. As far as I’m concerned, they’re one of the few organizations that makes _video_ evidence worth nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/7 "2016-10-13T12:48:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [snip] > Not just some conservative undercover reporter, but James O’keefe, pathological liar of the undercover video world. > > [http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/james-okeefe-agrees-to-pay-100000-settlement-088620](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/james-okeefe-agrees-to-pay-100000-settlement-088620) > [Fake pimp from ACORN videos tries to 'punk' CNN correspondent - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/29/okeefe.cnn.prank/) …so attacking the messenger disproves the message? ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/8 "2016-10-13T13:14:48Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …so attacking the messenger disproves the message? No, but it certainly makes it harder use that messenger to _prove_ the message. If the only source for this story is a video from a messenger who has a long history of making misleading videos, that’s much weaker evidence than just a random person making the video. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/9 "2016-10-13T14:01:34Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …so attacking the messenger disproves the message? If one does not have evidence that the messenger has constantly lied before that would be a good point. That is not the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/10 "2016-10-13T14:13:03Z")
Watch the video, from what I saw it’s really irrelevant who is interviewing him. I don’t know, maybe he has an axe to grind. I don’t know anything about Schulkin. I am more interested in knowing if voter impersonation fraud is even possible to the extent he’s claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/11 "2016-10-13T14:33:48Z")
I thought it was irrelevant too, but O’Keefe has managed to fool a lot of people with his previous “reveals,” which looked damaging until unedited versions were released. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/12 "2016-10-13T16:15:02Z")
A noted liar films a drunk old white guy saying racist things without evidence. What exactly is there to be disproven? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/13 "2016-10-13T18:06:55Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Sounds like a crock. I mean, you’d have to find someone who was registered to vote, but who doesn’t vote, and then vote in place of that person, right? For it to work? A poster here claimed that he showed up to vote once, and was refused because he was told that he had already voted. (Someone else voted in his name.) He never answered my question about what happened after he alerted the authorities about it. Because I’m here to tell you, if I am ever refused the right to vote because I’m told that I’ve already voted, Holy Hell will be raised right then and there! So I ain’t buying it. +1 Once you have two people show up who claim to be the same person, the jig is up. Then you have proof of fraud. When I go the poll, I give my name, I confirm my address, and I sign the book next to my name and address. The poll worker watches me sign. If someone else were to show up later claiming the same name and address, one of us has to be a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/14 "2016-10-13T21:55:51Z")
> [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > Now, assuming they have access to a list of registered voters (which isn’t unheard of, since I get junk electioneering snail mail all the time), they’d also have to know what voters are \*\*not \*\*planning on voting, and then impersonate them, since I would assume that as soon as a bunch of voters found that their spaces in the voting rolls were already signed, there’d be hell to pay. You left out another big factor: when I go to the poll to vote, I’m surrounded in line by people who know me. If you went to the place where I vote and told them you were CurtC, it’s pretty likely that the person in front of you or the one behind you would call bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/15 "2016-10-15T17:31:10Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > +1 > > Once you have two people show up who claim to be the same person, the jig is up. Then you have proof of fraud. > > When I go the poll, I give my name, I confirm my address, and I sign the book next to my name and address. The poll worker watches me sign. If someone else were to show up later claiming the same name and address, one of us has to be a fraud. If you’re signing the name f a person who’s dead, the risk f him showing up is small. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/16 "2016-10-15T17:49:32Z")
A group hypothetically intent on organized voter fraud in New York could access data received from a Freedom of Information request made to the New York State Board of Elections. There is a handy [online form](https://www.elections.ny.gov/FoilRequestVoterRegDataPrint.html) for submitting such request. Cross reference that against public information from the [Social Security Death Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Death_Index). That gets you a list of dead persons still listed on the voter rolls. Doubtful the registered voters would show up and challenge that someone else had already voted in his/her place. I have no idea whether anyone was taken such an approach, and would roundly condemn those who would do such a thing. But it took me longer to type this post than to figure out how such a scheme might work. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/17 "2016-10-15T18:02:50Z")
Follow up post… In some states at least (maybe all?) voter registration records are generally\* a matter of public record[including whether you voted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=671259) and which party you registered with. So fraudsters could look for persons on the voter rolls who have not voted in the last several elections and then attempt to impersonate them. A bit riskier than voting for the dead, perhaps. Again, I’ve no idea if anyone has done such. - Florida, at least, has a [confidentiality program](http://dos.myflorida.com/elections/for-voters/voter-registration/voter-information-as-a-public-record/) for victims of domestic abuse. Perhaps there are other ways to make a record not accessible to the public. And other states may have similar programs… but I know I never gave a thought to attempting to exempt my information from the public record. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/18 "2016-10-15T18:15:49Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > +1 > > Once you have two people show up who claim to be the same person, the jig is up. Then you have proof of fraud. > > When I go the poll, I give my name, I confirm my address, and I sign the book next to my name and address. The poll worker watches me sign. If someone else were to show up later claiming the same name and address, one of us has to be a fraud. I can understand raising holy hell, but my question to this “I have been listed as already voted!” situation is this: What comes next? Are the voter desks going to remember one guy named ‘Typo’ out of hundreds with the same name? Anyone voting in this method is unlikely to get caught and prosecuted. On your side, what happens to the already-filed vote? Depending on how NY handles the completed voter cards (I have never voted in NY) can they even tell where that vote is to tear it up? Or do they disenfranchise you from your vote and claim you are being fraudulent? If you pressed the issue, couldn’t (and wouldn’t) the voting officials simply have the police remove you? > [@Iggy](#): > > Follow up post… Some states will drop you from the voter registry if you fail to vote. This helps against the “look up inactive voters” method. Your other methods are terrifyingly simple, though. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/19 "2016-10-15T18:57:02Z")
There are various procedures for use of a conditional/provisional ballot. I suspect that a person claiming to be the same John Q. Public who has already been marked as having voted would then be able to cast a conditional ballot. But it seems doubtful that there would be an effective way in all cases to pull the earlier cast fraudster’s ballot from the pile. The US Election Assistance Commission wrote a 130 page report ([pdf link](https://www.eac.gov/assets/1/Page/Innovations%20in%20Election%20Administration%2019.pdf)) just on conditional ballots. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358/20 "2016-10-15T18:59:15Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You left out another big factor: when I go to the poll to vote, I’m surrounded in line by people who know me. If you went to the place where I vote and told them you were CurtC, it’s pretty likely that the person in front of you or the one behind you would call bullshit. Not as applicable in NYC. Possible, but far less probable. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-democratic-election-official-claims-voter-id-fraud/768358.md?page=2)