# NYC Dopers: What about Manhattan justifies the rent? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 30, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042 "2004-10-30T17:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/21 "2004-10-31T19:58:39Z")
I know, I said the $250 rentals in Boston probably had 5 roommates and put you in the ghetto. I never said you could get a nice private apartment in a good neighborhood for $250 in boston, just that you could get 4 walls for $250. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/22 "2004-10-31T21:09:24Z")
I misunderstood. But you can probably get four walls in Manhattan for $250, too, if you’re willing to have several roommates, and not live on the Upper East Side or Tribeca. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/23 "2004-10-31T23:33:25Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Main problem with NJ is you can’t walk home after a power blackout or terrorist attack. Take the Holland Tunnel. Don’t forget your flashlight! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/24 "2004-11-01T00:06:13Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > msmith, I meant I do agree with the part about Boston not being as expensive as Manhattan. What I don’t agree with is your statement that nobody lives in Boston. I kind of misspoke. More people live in Boston than in the downtown areas of places like Atlanta or Seattle. But Boston is more of a car city. It was rare that I met someone who lived AND worked in Boston and didn’t need a car. And once you have a car, you have much more flexibility where you can live. My first appartment in 1996 was in a crappy 2 family house with two guys in Dedham, MA ($350 a month). My second place was a crappier one bedroom for around $700 in Waltham. Didn’t matter that I wasn’t Boston proper, I could be there in 15 minutes and park for $8 any time I chose. The suburns tend to blend into each other in Boston so it doesn’t matter if you live in Back Bay, Brighton, Newton or Norwood. It’s just how far out you want to live vs price. New York, there is a very real physical barrier between Manhattan and the rest of the metropolitan area - the rivers. If you live on the Jersey side of the river, it becomes a major pain in the ass to take advantage to city life compared to being able to roll out of bed and walk down the street. ---
**Author:** ![Kayeby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de0a6/32.png) [@Kayeby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kayeby)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/25 "2004-11-01T00:32:22Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I’m looking at the Real Estate listings in the _Sunday Times Magazine_, and we’ve got a three-bedroom condo in the East 70s for $3.2 million, a three-bedroom in the East 60s for $1.25 million, a three-bedroom on Central Park West (too boho for Charlotte!) for $4.2 million . . . and remember, this doesn’t include the _thousands_/month maintenance fees. East 70s? East 60s? _scratches head_ But wow … ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/26 "2004-11-01T01:18:02Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > Take the Holland Tunnel. Don’t forget your flashlight! You think I didn’t _try_ to walk through the Lincoln Tunnel during the last blackout? The cops were having none of it. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/27 "2004-11-01T01:24:35Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > I misunderstood. But you can probably get four walls in Manhattan for $250, too, if you’re willing to have several roommates, and not live on the Upper East Side or Tribeca. yehaw. Sharing a studio apartment with 6 people. ---
**Author:** ![tryout1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@tryout1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tryout1)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/28 "2004-11-01T05:45:33Z")
I have never lived in New York, although I always enjoy visiting. But I have always heard that one factor contributing to the high rents in New York City, paradoxically, is the rent control laws. If a New Yorker has a rent-controlled apartment, he will do just about anything to hang onto it, including subletting it under the table even if he doesn’t live there and bribing the building superintendent not to rat on him. There are also different levels of rent “control” and rent “stabilization” depending on when the tenant moved in, how old the building is, how big it is, etc. As an outsider, I don’t understand the details. But the point observers make is that developers have had a strong financial incentive NOT to build rental housing in the face of restrictions on the return they can expect. In fact, the laws created a strong incentive to convert existing rental housing to coops and condos, putting even more pressure on the remaing rental stock. New York has always been the one of the most exciting cities in the world, but from what I understand rents in Manhattan in the '60s and '70s were not nearly as out of line with the rest of the country as they are today. Any thoughts from New Yorkers? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/29 "2004-11-01T16:15:36Z")
You probably heard that from people who own buildings and stand to gain financially from the abolishment of rent controll. The thing is there are plenty of new apartment buildings going up in NYC. More than you might expect since every square inch has a building on it! If anything is keeping building from happening is the lack of space to put a new building. The rent in these places are pretty high as well since they are new. You can’t just come in and say change all the 5 stroy buildings for 50 story buildings to increase supply so that it is more than demand. For one thing the 5 story buildings are probably landmarks and they give NYC ‘character’. If anything can bring the rent in Manhattan down it is an improvement in the mass transit situtation. If the subways and commuter trains were improved to run much faster and more frequently then living in an outer bourough would become more desirable. That could lead to people leaving Manhattan. But the thing is that an Manhattan address is still desirable for loads of reasons. So supply is less than demand so the price is high. That is the central fact. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/30 "2004-11-01T16:30:33Z")
> [@tryout1](#): > > I have never lived in New York, although I always enjoy visiting. But I have always heard that one factor contributing to the high rents in New York City, paradoxically, is the rent control laws. If a New Yorker has a rent-controlled apartment, he will do just about anything to hang onto it, including subletting it under the table even if he doesn’t live there and bribing the building superintendent not to rat on him. Yes, quite often once people get a rent controlled appartment they will do anything to keep it. One of my friends was just “evicted” from his Stuversen Town appartment because he was subletting it for the past 3 years while he maintained permenant residence in Florida. There used to be a 5 year waiting list for those places because they were rent controlled. My own place was “rent stabalized” for 2 years (if you consider $1850 “controlled”), however once it came off rent stabalization the rent actually went down by $200. The effect of rent control in general is to create shortages of appartments. More people want the appartments than the market can bear. Landlords are unwilling or unable to make improvements because their margins are so low. Developers are hesitant to develop because they can’t charge market prices. One thing that is happening is that Manhattan real estate has become so desirable that people are moving into areas that were once pretty crappy - Harlem, Alphabet City, and certain parts of Brooklyn come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/31 "2004-11-01T17:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > One thing that is happening is that Manhattan real estate has become so desirable that people are moving into areas that were once pretty crappy - Harlem, Alphabet City, and certain parts of Brooklyn come to mind. That’s exactly what has happened in Boston. The South End used to be for freaky artistic types, or gay people, or persons otherwise on the fringe. The it was just the South End until Tremont; then that area became gentrified and the “scary” parts were Tremont until Mass Avenue. Then Mass Ave. became gentrified and now the nice part of the South End goes all the way to Roxbury, and beyond. The whole neighborhood is priced out of reach for most people, at least to buy, if not to rent. South Boston used to be the very affordable “South End alternative”; now there are “_South Boston_ alternatives.” Dorchester used to be perceived as (except for a couple of nice streets) practically a ghetto; now there are regularly million-dollar homes for sale there. My former landlord bought his Dot house in 1990 for $189K (WAY overpriced); today he could get a million+ easily. Roxbury – formerly considered the worst and most dangerous place in Boston to live - is prime real estate today. In the Leather District, you could buy an entire building 10 years ago for about $80,000. Today a loft apartment inside goes for more than $500,000. It probably goes the same in all cities. I could just kick myself for not buying that $159K condo in the South End 6 years ago. Today I could sell it for $450K in about 5 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/32 "2004-11-01T18:46:06Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > South Boston used to be the very affordable “South End alternative”; now there are “_South Boston_ alternatives.” A lot of cities have formerly blue collar neighborhoods that are being populated by young professional types. “Southie” was ususally thought of as a working class Irish neighborhood. Same thing with Hoboken, NJ or Maniunk (sp?), PA outside Philly. In fact, it is becomming an issue as local residents who have lived there for years can no longer afford the rent as landlords would rather rent to professionals who make more money. Mostly this is due to the revitalization of urban downtown areas. In the 90s, it once again became favorible to live in the cities instead of the suburbs. Probably due in some small part to shows like Friends or Seinfield and other popular movies and shows that portrayed city life as young, hip and trendy. Suburban life, formerly the embodiment of the American Dream is now portrayed as generic, stagnant, and provincial. Anyhow, for whatever reason, people are moving back to the cities and every city wants to be like New York. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/33 "2004-11-01T19:13:50Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > I misunderstood. But you can probably get four walls in Manhattan for $250, too, if you’re willing to have several roommates, and not live on the Upper East Side or Tribeca. I can’t imagine that. If you check listings on craigslist, for example, you’ll see that rates that low are _weekly_, not monthly. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/34 "2004-11-01T19:50:30Z")
> [@chula](#): > > I can’t imagine that. If you check listings on craigslist, for example, you’ll see that rates that low are _weekly_, not monthly. I don’t mean you’ll have your own bedroom in Manhattan for $250 a month, even with roommates. I said, responding to as Wesley\_Clark’s original post, that you could have **four walls** for $250 a month - if you’re willing to cram enough people into an apartment, you can make the rent per-person very low. Not comfortable but possible. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/35 "2004-11-01T20:17:49Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Is it the energy of the place that is worth the money and aggravation, or is it niche jobs that simply aren’t available anywhere else, or not wanting to commute from Jersey or wherever, or what? I ask myself these questions every year when lease renewal time comes around. When I first moved here it was for the energy (music, specifically), but convenience has eclipsed that. For a while my wife and I were thinking “let’s just move out of here” and find a bigger place. The thing is, I’ve had this apartment for almost 12 years now and the rent (stabilized) is just slightly above nominal. If we moved, we’d pay four times as much rent for a place maybe twice as big. We just can’t do it. It’s a sickness I tell ya. Now that we have kids moving out of the city is difficult to consider because everything is just so easy for my wife, who stays at home with them. We have half a dozen friends in the building with kids that ours play with, there’s a nice park half a block away, there are Children’s Studio type places (basically padded indoor playgrounds with music and art and whatnot) that we take the girls to, good schools are all around, museums, a million things to do all within walking distance. I work in an industry that has it’s heartland out in New Jersey but there are several outposts here in the city. I commuted to NJ for a while. It’s not too bad. I work 40 blocks down and 3 blocks over from where I live so I can take the bus, the subway, ride my bike, or walk. To move out and have to do ‘real’ commute…yikes. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/36 "2004-11-01T20:32:02Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > I don’t mean you’ll have your own bedroom in Manhattan for $250 a month, even with roommates. I said, responding to as Wesley\_Clark’s original post, that you could have **four walls** for $250 a month - if you’re willing to cram enough people into an apartment, you can make the rent per-person very low. Not comfortable but possible. I guess I wouldn’t call _sharing_ four walls _having_ four walls. You might find this amusing: [600 / 0br - COZY STUDIO apartment in the Village, OWN a 3x3 foot SQUARE!!!](http://newyork.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/31620844.html) ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/37 "2004-11-02T13:57:45Z")
It really comes down to: are you a city person, who enjoys city living? Do you like the the convenience of not spending thousands on a car (and never worrying about gas, insurance, and whether some addict smashed your window to get the $0.15 you left on the dash)? Do you want to be able to walk to work in less than half an hour? Do you like tall buildings, easy shopping for _everything_, and small intimate parks? (or in Manhattan, biking through Central Park everyday like I do?) Or would you rather be spending 2 hours a day in your car, fighting traffic, struggling to get to your suburban home, only to find out you have to get back in traffic because you forgot to pick up some milk and bread? As for the expense, well, some of us are able to find deals on rent. And while my rent is the highest I’ve ever paid in my life, as a percentage of my household income, it’s the lowest. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/38 "2004-11-02T14:24:49Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Do you like the the convenience of not spending thousands on a car . . . Do you want to be able to walk to work in less than half an hour? Do you like tall buildings, easy shopping for _everything_, and small intimate parks? (or in Manhattan, biking through Central Park everyday like I do?) > > Or would you rather be spending 2 hours a day in your car, fighting traffic, struggling to get to your suburban home, only to find out you have to get back in traffic because you forgot to pick up some milk and bread? I don’t own a car; I commute to work in about a half-hour by train or bus; and I do all my shopping in Manhattan. I just _live_ over the river, and I must admit I like coming home to a quiet, boring neighborhood after all day in the city. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/39 "2004-11-02T14:46:24Z")
Manhattan is cool? No, being in Bed-Stuy Brooklyn when the corpse of Biggie Smalls comes rolling through the street to say goodbye is cool. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042/40 "2004-11-02T14:46:27Z")
I’m in the same boat (and area) as **Eve**. I live in a rent control 2 room apartment with a 1/2 hour $3 commute to downtown NYC. The best of both worlds–suburban New Jersey on my doorstep and NYC down the block. I love New York–it’s always happening, always the same and yet different, and has a 'heartbeat" all its own. People spend thousands of dollars once a year to visit, and I can do it all year round. I’m amazed at how many NJ people don’t visit NYC–why do they even live here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-dopers-what-about-manhattan-justifies-the-rent/272042.md?page=3)