# NYC undercover investigators buy guns at Arizona gun show without background checks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697 "2011-01-31T21:38:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/21 "2011-02-01T03:48:01Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > Nothing the sellers did was actually illegal. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/22 "2011-02-01T04:06:42Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I don’t see how these situations are comparable. A politician pushing for his, or her, law-enforcement officers to start investigating crimes that are out of their jurisdiction, and you really don’t see the comparison? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/23 "2011-02-01T04:25:59Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > A politician pushing for his, or her, law-enforcement officers to start investigating crimes that are out of their jurisdiction, and you really don’t see the comparison? From the New York Times article linked in the op. > [@](#): > > The investigation, part of an effort by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s administration to crack down on illegal gun sales nationwide, took place Jan. 23 at the Crossroads of the West Gun Show in Phoenix, officials said. As misguided as I think Arizona is in regards to their efforts to control immigration they are at least limiting their actions to their own state. What the hell business does a mayor have in sending investigators undercover to another city let alone another state? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/24 "2011-02-01T04:33:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …What authority (and what godly reason) does NYC have to cracking down on illegal gun sales nationwide?? > > -XT The authority of Bloomburg’s desire to run for President in 2012? Tell me he doesn’t poll well against the likely Republican nominees. (God help us all.) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/25 "2011-02-01T06:17:40Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > As misguided as I think Arizona is in regards to their efforts to control immigration they are at least limiting their actions to their own state. What the hell business does a mayor have in sending investigators undercover to another city let alone another state? I looked up the word “jurisdiction” before I used it in my post. It refers not just to physical boundaries, but also to areas of responsibility. As far as I know, it is not within Arizona’s responsibility to enforce federal immigration laws. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/26 "2011-02-01T06:47:59Z")
I think Phoenix should send some investigators to New York to see if they can score a nice bit of fish with a side of bacon at Katz’s Deli. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/27 "2011-02-01T08:15:16Z")
Wasn’t there a lawsuit about a decade ago in New York, where the families of victims of gun violence sued gun manufacturers? IIRC, some of the manufacturers were found not liable, but others were found guilty of… I’m not sure what… because the plaintiffs demonstrated quite clearly in court that those manufacturers were flooding states with weak transfer laws (like Louisiana), knowing full well that those weapons would be sold privately at gun shows, to be transported to states like New York? In effect, what was demonstrated was that the manufacturers were knowingly selling to the New York black market in guns via gun shows in the south. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/28 "2011-02-01T08:21:45Z")
[That lawsuit was rightfully dismissed.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/washington/10guns.html) ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/29 "2011-02-01T10:04:16Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I looked up the word “jurisdiction” before I used it in my post. It refers not just to physical boundaries, but also to areas of responsibility. As far as I know, it is not within Arizona’s responsibility to enforce federal immigration laws. INAL but **Arizona** law enforcement officers enforcing an **Arizona** law (SB1070 being passed by the **Arizona** legislature and signed by the **Arizona** governor) within the **Arizona** boarders would seem to fall within **Arizona’s** jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/30 "2011-02-01T10:23:26Z")
Just a thought here, and I would need to do a tonne of research, But what if, the gun show was doing a noticeable amount of A and P in New York, and for whatever reason someone going to Arizona to buy a gun circumvented or broke NY federal laws? Wouldn’t it make sense for the police to then try to gather information to stop the PURCHASE rather than the sale (different things). Or wouldn’t it make sense to try to gather information on just how much of a problem it was? Without wanting to go into a debate on gun laws, it sounds like a fairly legitimate use of resources to me… ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/31 "2011-02-01T14:25:27Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Just a thought here, and I would need to do a tonne of research, > > But what if, the gun show was doing a noticeable amount of A and P in New York, and for whatever reason someone going to Arizona to buy a gun circumvented or broke NY federal laws? > > Wouldn’t it make sense for the police to then try to gather information to stop the PURCHASE rather than the sale (different things). Or wouldn’t it make sense to try to gather information on just how much of a problem it was? > > Without wanting to go into a debate on gun laws, it sounds like a fairly legitimate use of resources to me… The bottom line is that Bloomberg is out to stop private sales between individuals. The website linked to earlier says as much. These sales that they caught on camera could have happened anywhere in the US. There is a legal way to buy firearms from other states. There is also an illegal method. The investigators in this piece showed AZ IDs making the sale completely legal even after they mumbled once about not passing a background check. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Jay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b77776/32.png) [@The\_Jay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Jay)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/32 "2011-02-01T15:32:03Z")
I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m an Aussie and I really haven’t looked too far in to the gun laws over there and all that hoo ha. But it seems that the point of the thread is that guns are being sold to people they shouldn’t be. Who cares who funded it, or whether it was legal or not in the first place for those people to even try to purchase those guns (or not?). If you heard about a man selling cocaine to a 10 year old child at midday on a Wednesday, do you absolve the man of his wrong doing because the kid should have been in school? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/33 "2011-02-01T18:21:19Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > INAL but **Arizona** law enforcement officers enforcing an **Arizona** law (SB1070 being passed by the **Arizona** legislature and signed by the **Arizona** governor) within the **Arizona** boarders would seem to fall within **Arizona’s** jurisdiction. I said that both these stunts were enacted by politicians, so the fact that [del]Ari[/del] **Arizona** ’s legislature and governor are the driving forces makes the comparison more direct. If Mayor Bloomberg amended the bylaws of New York City (through whatever process is normally used) to say he could investigate gun shows in [del]Ari[/del] **Arizona** would that make it okay? No, because he doesn’t have the authority to pass that rule. By the same token, it’s not at all clear to me that the Constitution grants [del]Ari[/del] **Arizona** the authority to pass its own immigration laws. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/34 "2011-02-01T20:03:14Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I’m all in favor of requiring 100% background checks (at the purchaser’s expense) except when the transfer is between family members. Of course, that’s another “loophole”, but that’s still a way to facilitate gifting. Everything else, however, should require a check. It really is a simple process, it’s not expensive, and it keeps everybody safe, legal and honest. It’s how I have purchased all of my firearms, and it’s no big deal unless you shouldn’t be buying one to begin with. How do you feel about a national firearm and ballistics registry? I’ve been to the Virginia Gun Show and a non-dealer can sell me a gun without a background check and some of these non-dealers had a bunch of guns (new in box) for sale. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/35 "2011-02-01T20:31:58Z")
I don’t get the sniveling about Who paid the investigators. It’s irrelevant. If it shows the sellers breaking the law, then it shows the sellers breaking the law (the suggestions that Bloomberg is making it all up are too stupid to even deserve a response). It’s not clear from the articles that the “investigators” hired for the sting were from New York or only hired in Arizona BY New York, but I suspect the latter because they apparently had AZ driver’s licences. At that point all the attempts to change the subject to whining aout Bloomberg are irrelevant. “I probably couldn’t pass a background check” gives the sellers “reason to believe” the buyer can’t legally possess a gun, which makes the sale arguably illegal (sniveling about NY trying to enforce the law is off point since nobody was arrested). At the very least, the sting exposed just how easy it is for criminals and psychopaths to buy guns from irresponsible redneck dealers who don’t give a shit who or what they sell to. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/36 "2011-02-01T20:37:05Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If Mayor Bloomberg amended the bylaws of New York City (through whatever process is normally used) to say he could investigate gun shows in [del]Ari[/del] **Arizona** would that make it okay? No, because he doesn’t have the authority to pass that rule. Of course he does. What rule is there that a city government cannot hire investigators in (or send investigators to) other locations? His folks do not have any authority to arrest or detain anyone, beyond what a typical citizen has, but there is no law that states a NYC hired individual can’t go to a gun show and look around. Bloomberg, rightly or wrongly, is sick of seeing guns purchased from across the country used in crimes within his city. So, for a number of years, he’s worked to try and get other states to pass laws that are more restrictive. This is just one more salvo from his administration, trying to make other places look like they’re lax in their rules regarding gun sales. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/37 "2011-02-01T20:46:38Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I said that both these stunts were enacted by politicians, so the fact that [del]Ari[/del] **Arizona** ’s legislature and governor are the driving forces makes the comparison more direct. If Mayor Bloomberg amended the bylaws of New York City (through whatever process is normally used) to say he could investigate gun shows in [del]Ari[/del] **Arizona** would that make it okay? No, because he doesn’t have the authority to pass that rule. By the same token, it’s not at all clear to me that the Constitution grants [del]Ari[/del] **Arizona** the authority to pass its own immigration laws. Arizona doesn’t enforce immigration laws or investigate illegal immigration activity in NYC. There is really no reason for the comparison. If NYC had sent their investigators to a gun show in Maine, the immigration topic would never even have come up. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/38 "2011-02-01T20:58:30Z")
I’ve always wondered, what happens when you buy a gun at a gunshow? How does it actually work? Do you have to show proof of citizenship, residency, driver’s license? In many countries, the rights of individuals apply whether or not you’re a citizen. Is it the same for gun laws? Do you at least have to be a resident or not? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/39 "2011-02-01T21:27:51Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I’ve always wondered, what happens when you buy a gun at a gunshow? How does it actually work? Do you have to show proof of citizenship, residency, driver’s license? > > In many countries, the rights of individuals apply whether or not you’re a citizen. Is it the same for gun laws? Do you at least have to be a resident or not? There are Federal and State laws. If you buy from a licensed (FFL) Federal Firearms dealer, you need to complete a background check or equivalency, complete a form 4473, show ID and be a resident of the state in which you are making the sale. If buying a handgun and you are an out of state resident, the gun must be shipped to a FFL dealer in your home state. If buying a long arm, and you are a resident of a contiguous border state, you may take it with you at the time of the sale. State laws may vary and add several layers of complexity to the Federal rules. These rules apply if you are buying at a gun show or at a gun dealer’s place of business. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697/40 "2011-02-01T22:04:02Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Arizona doesn’t enforce immigration laws or investigate illegal immigration activity in NYC. There is really no reason for the comparison. They don’t have any jurisdiction to enforce it in Arizona. either, though. That’s the point. And Bloomberg didn’t try to enforce any gun laws in Arizona. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-undercover-investigators-buy-guns-at-arizona-gun-show-without-background-checks/569697.md?page=3)