# NYS is F\*\*\*ed. Also Sun Rises in East. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979 "2008-09-17T13:58:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/21 "2008-09-18T00:44:32Z")
Oh come on. The money has gone to fast ferries, of course! You gotta have the fast ferries! **OtakuLoki** , you should probably be a reader of the [Smugtown Beacon, if you aren’t already.](http://www.smugtownbeacon.com/) I think you’d enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/22 "2008-09-18T02:09:18Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > I’ve been keeping half an eye on the situation in Jefferson County, Alabama. I’m sorry to hear about your eye, what happened to the other half? I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/23 "2008-09-18T03:21:26Z")
I’m new to the area. I have noted living expenses are ridiculous out here on the East Coast, but people in general appear quite well-to-do. (I’m told I have a somewhat distorted view of economic security here as all I’ve really seen of NYC is the Wall St. District.) In general though, people seem to really think about money and financial planning–even young people. I’m hoping to learn a thing or two from these financially savvy folks. Also, consider that I moved from Michigan, which is going through an incredibly economically painful experience even by general U.S. standards. I can’t even describe how bad the Michigan economy is right now. Compared to Michigan the East Coast is a land of milk and honey. My rent went up but so did my wages, so it evens out. I will be paying New York City income taxes but I live in New Jersey. I’ve been rather stunned by the news this week. I don’t know much about the way stocks work, but I’m trying to learn and keep informed. My 403b is with AIG but I’m told that my money won’t be much affected, and very luckily for me, I’m young. The impact that this destabilization is going to have on the entire economy as a whole can’t be discounted though. I worry. I think you have a very legitimate point. The wealth of New York State has always amazed me, but I imagine it owes a lot of that to the incredible economic power generated by big business in New York City. If all of that falls out from under the state, it will no doubt impact the local economy. However, I think that impact will affect the country as a whole with equal profundity–New York City doesn’t just support NYS, it supports the entire nation. Fortunately, I have the most secure job in the country right now-- debt counseling! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/24 "2008-09-18T03:44:58Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > I’m sorry to hear about your eye, what happened to the other half? Reminds me of this: (apolgies to Willie Nelson): > [@](#): > > If I’d only had one arm to hold you … better yet, if I had none at all… > If I’d only had one ear to listen… to the lies that you told to me.. > If I’d only had one leg to stand on …then how much how much truer picture you’d see… > For then I more closely resemble > the half a man that you’ve made of me 😛 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/25 "2008-09-18T10:47:45Z")
I’m more optimistic. There are plenty of people and businesses who would have chosen to be located in New York but for the fact that it’s too damn expensive. If the financial industry contracts, it will make some room for these folks. I do agree that the city and state are likely to face budget crises, but that’s been happening for a hundred years. I predict they’ll make it through; forget what’s been learned; and move on to the next round of excess, just like in this past. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/26 "2008-09-18T14:10:46Z")
Wait…are you saying that if you raise taxes on business they will have the affrontery to LEAVE?!? Perish the thought… -XT ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/27 "2008-09-18T16:36:19Z")
Fundamentally, New York City’s real asset is its mystique. If you are a financial institution; a doctor; an law firm; an accountant; an advertising agency; etc., you have a lot of extra credibility if your phone number starts with 212. The amount of extra taxes and rent you pay to have your office in Manhattan instead of Jersey City (a mile or two away) is staggering. But quite frequently it’s worth it. I don’t see New York City’s mystique going away any time soon. But when it does (and it will, because no city can be #1 forever), then NY could have some serious problems. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/28 "2008-09-18T17:27:57Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I don’t mean to discount anything you’ve said. But the comparison about tax burdens is going to matter a lot more between states than between NY and Canada. (Well, NY and Ontario.) AFAIK NY isn’t competing with Ontario for start up businesses, it’s competing with, say, Delaware, or Arkansas. Or even Texas. The reality is that, under NAFTA, to at least some extent, it _is_ competing with Ontario. (And vice versa, which is a regular concern from our end.) ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/29 "2008-09-18T18:04:14Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Sun Rises in East Not everywhere; it can also rise in the north or south. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/30 "2008-09-18T18:33:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Fundamentally, New York City’s real asset is its mystique. If you are a financial institution; a doctor; an law firm; an accountant; an advertising agency; etc., you have a lot of extra credibility if your phone number starts with 212. Not so much. Speaking as a NYC finance professional, its real asset is its workforce. If you are a financial institution and you want a, large fluid labor market with some of the finest talent in the world, there are only a handful of cities that qualify. There are some decent finance people in other places, but seriously. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/31 "2008-09-18T18:55:09Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > There are some decent finance people in other places, but seriously. NYC + 9/11 + SOx -\> London ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/32 "2008-09-18T19:24:43Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > NYC + 9/11 + SOx -\> London Not so much in my experience. It looks more like this: Downtown NYC + 9/11 + SOX yielded Midtown NYC +9/11 + SOX ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/33 "2008-09-18T20:04:46Z")
New York is very good on finance, but it’s more diversified with other commercial opportunities than London. There’s more competition for talent, you might say. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/34 "2008-09-18T21:12:10Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Not so much. Speaking as a NYC finance professional, its real asset is its workforce. If you are a financial institution and you want a, large fluid labor market with some of the finest talent in the world, there are only a handful of cities that qualify. There are some decent finance people in other places, but seriously. I have 2 questions for you: (1) Why are those talented people living in the NYC area? (2) Why don’t those financial institutions save on rent and taxes and re-locate all of their operations to Jersey City or Newark? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/35 "2008-09-18T21:23:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I have 2 questions for you: > > (1) Why are those talented people living in the NYC area? > > (2) Why don’t those financial institutions save on rent and taxes and re-locate all of their operations to Jersey City or Newark? 1. It is a virtuous cycle. There is a market there. Once upon a time, if you wanted to make money, you had to be where the market was. So people and companies proliferated. 2. We do. A lot of the lower-value and operations work is done outside of NYC. It is less convenient for metro area people to commute to Jersey. If my company told me that my role was being relocated to Newark and the rest of the financial world weren’t imploding, I’d be looking for a new job in a New York minute. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/36 "2008-09-18T21:32:49Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > 1. We do. A lot of the lower-value and operations work is done outside of NYC. It is less convenient for metro area people to commute to Jersey. If my company told me that my role was being relocated to Newark and the rest of the financial world weren’t imploding, I’d be looking for a new job in a New York minute. AIUI, though, keeping the corporate HQ in Manhattan has a number of costs that would be cut should a business simply perform an administrative change of location for its HQ. That so many companies stay based in Manhattan, even while moving operations or other departments into Newark, or Jersey City, says a lot about the mystique that **brazil84** is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/37 "2008-09-18T21:39:21Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > AIUI, though, keeping the corporate HQ in Manhattan has a number of costs that would be cut should a business simply perform an administrative change of location for its HQ. That so many companies stay based in Manhattan, even while moving operations or other departments into Newark, or Jersey City, says a lot about the mystique that **brazil84** is talking about. Comapies capable of posting multi-billion dollar profits (and losses, occasionally) can do the math. The savings in rent and taxes are clearly not worth the loss of talent and the loss of proximity to clients and markets. Functions that are easily replaceable in the local labor pool are outsourced to other cities. Investment banks stay in Manhattan because that is where the investment bankers want to be. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/38 "2008-09-18T22:03:28Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > 1. It is a virtuous cycle. There is a market there. Once upon a time, if you wanted to make money, you had to be where the market was. So people and companies proliferated. Right. That’s part of what I meant when I referred to the mystique of NYC. For the time being, it’s the world’s premier city. Which attracts succesful people and businesses. Which attract each other. Which maintains NYC’s status as the world’s premier city. > [@](#): > > 1. We do. A lot of the lower-value and operations work is done outside of NYC. But not all. The “front office” is probably in NYC. Commuting issues explain some of it, but not all. Why did Citibank put most of it’s back office operations in Long Island City and its front office operations in mid-town? You think it’s just a coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/39 "2008-09-19T01:47:03Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t see New York City’s mystique going away any time soon. But when it does (and it will, because **no city can be #1 forever** ), then NY could have some serious problems. (bolding mine) Maybe not #1, but I don’t see any intrinsic reason New York can’t be one of the prime financial capitals of the world for some time to come. I mean, how long has London been in that category? 400 years and going strong, or so? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979/40 "2008-09-19T08:56:02Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Maybe not #1, but I don’t see any intrinsic reason New York can’t be one of the prime financial capitals of the world for some time to come. I mean, how long has London been in that category? 400 years and going strong, or so? There’s a difference between “some time to come” and “forever.” There was a time when Carthage was an important city, no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nys-is-f-ed-also-sun-rises-in-east/463979.md?page=3)