# NYT apologized for ACORN story, where are Doper apologies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945 "2010-04-04T20:24:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/181 "2010-04-07T03:43:41Z")
Perhaps so. Refresh our memory, how many convictions for voter fraud has ACORN suffered? I’d heard it was pretty low… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/182 "2010-04-07T03:53:52Z")
All of which neatly evades the central fact, which is that ACORN is targeted and persecuted not for doing their job badly, but all too well. I don’t think for an instant that the Pubbies who pressed this thing were motivated by fiscal responsibility, and I daresay neither do you. However, if you tell me you do believe it, and you swear you believe upon Fat Tony Scalia’s Scaly Scrotum, I’ll pretend to believe that you really believe that. OK, I’ll _try_. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/183 "2010-04-07T03:58:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. If we could point to, say, four criminal convictions of four different workers in a period of two months for voter fraud (or whatever the Lockheed equivalent of voter fraud is) then it would be appropriate to aply sanctions. Does it have to be accusations of voter fraud? I know an organization with over a thousand accusations of sexually abusing children, that also includes cover ups that moved the accused to another area where they could continue to abuse children. Na, that’s crazy talk, no one gives a shit about child molestation any more. I heard in the fall NBC is replacing SVU with Law and Order: Voter Fraud Division. CSI and NCIS are also working on their angle. Should make for some great crime drama. An organization gets accused, then nothing. Then they get accused again, then nothing. dun dun ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/184 "2010-04-07T04:27:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. If we could point to, say, four criminal convictions of four different workers in a period of two months for voter fraud (or whatever the Lockheed equivalent of voter fraud is) then it would be appropriate to aply sanctions. You appear to be implying that some (four?) ACORN workers have been convicted of voter fraud. I’m sure then that you can provide a cite that shows that this is, in fact, true. Could you do this please? A cite that ACORN workers have been convicted of voter fraud. Otherwise, I think that it would be fair, appropriate and equivalent if sanctions were applied to Lockheed if the company is merely _accused_ of a crime. Or perhaps if a lefty documentary film maker went into a Lockheed office, and faked some film footage that made it appear that a Lockheed worker was complicit in giving bad advice. Then Lockheed itself should lose all government contracts, right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/185 "2010-04-07T04:42:52Z")
For the record, there have been zero convictions of ACORN workers for voter fraud. For that matter, there have been zero _charges_ of voter fraud. There have been instances of voter _registration_ fraud committed against ACORN by day workers hired to collect registrations, but calling them “ACORN workers” is an intentionally deceptive choice of words. They were hired by ACORN, but they were not ACORN employees in anything but the most pedantic sense. They were temp workers off the street hired to work for a day or a week, and they were definitely not falsifying registrations on behalf of or at the request of ACORN, but in order to scam them. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/186 "2010-04-07T04:58:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For the record, there have been zero convictions of ACORN workers for voter fraud. For that matter, there have been zero _charges_ of voter fraud. There have been instances of voter _registration_ fraud committed against ACORN by day workers hired to collect registrations, but calling them “ACORN workers” is an intentionally deceptive choice of words. They were hired by ACORN, but they were not ACORN employees in anything but the most pedantic sense. They were temp workers off the street hired to work for a day or a week, and they were definitely not falsifying registrations on behalf of or at the request of ACORN, but in order to scam them. Well, as far as I know, neither Lockheed-Martin nor Blackwater have any convictions of voter fraud. So does that mean their federal funding should be cut? I’m so confused, why was an organization that hasn’t committed any crimes been destroyed. But then organizations that DID commit crimes hasn’t. All I can say is that I sure hope no one accuses **Shoden** of voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/187 "2010-04-07T05:00:14Z")
But **Bricker** has implied otherwise. Not only that, but his implication is detailed. He speaks of **convictions** for voter fraud. Not just charges. He speaks of a specific number (four) of convictions over a very specific number of months (two). Why the details? Surely he must have proof that there were four criminal convictions of four different workers in a period of two months for voter fraud. Otherwise, why would he have made that the basis of they hypothetical sanctions against Lockheed? I will await his proof. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/188 "2010-04-07T05:03:10Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Well, as far as I know, neither Lockheed-Martin nor Blackwater have any convictions of voter fraud. > > So does that mean their federal funding should be cut? > > I’m so confused, why was an organization that hasn’t committed any crimes been destroyed. But then organizations that DID commit crimes hasn’t. > > All I can say is that I sure hope no one accuses **Shoden** of voter fraud. Voter fraud was not the only criterion for what defined a “covered group.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/189 "2010-04-07T05:27:54Z")
Okay, I’m not going to get into the current stuff, as I what I want to say doesn’t really involve it. I’d say I haven’t read the entire thread, but that apparently freaks people out. ANyways, I apologize for believing the ACORN thing without checking the facts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/190 "2010-04-07T05:37:44Z")
Once, about ten years or so ago, I got hit in the head and robbed. OK, so I was the victim, that’s true. But I can never say I was never involved with an armed robbery, because I have been. Well, same thing! There’s a \*pattern of involvement \*here, where ACORN was frequently involved in voter fraud. A clear pattern of involvement, by their own admission! And I don’t think anyone here can complain about Congress defunding someone with a clear pattern of involvement in voter fraud! Oh, and liberal hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/191 "2010-04-07T11:13:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You appear to be implying that some (four?) ACORN workers have been convicted of voter fraud. I’m sure then that you can provide a cite that shows that this is, in fact, true. > > Could you do this please? A cite that ACORN workers have been convicted of voter fraud. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For the record, there have been zero convictions of ACORN workers for voter fraud. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > But **Bricker** has implied otherwise. Not only that, but his implication is detailed. He speaks of **convictions** for voter fraud. Not just charges. He speaks of a specific number (four) of convictions over a very specific number of months (two). Why the details? Surely he must have proof that there were four criminal convictions of four different workers in a period of two months for voter fraud. > > Otherwise, why would he have made that the basis of they hypothetical sanctions against Lockheed? > > I will await his proof. I think the problem here is that **Diogenes** is contending that “voter fraud” and “voter registration fraud” should not be used interchangeably. That they are two completely unrelated offenses; that to speak of convictions for “voter fraud” is an insult, an insult! To those merely convicted of the crime of voter registration fraud. Is that it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/192 "2010-04-07T11:13:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the same way that the Democrats howled “Count every vote!” but fought to keep the military absentee ballots fomr being counted. And they were right to raise the question: if the rule says the ballot must be postmarked by X, and it’s X+3 days, then it’s not valid. But in anything other than a tight race, no one cares. This is an instructive example of how a person can have principles even when their ox is being gored. I, and many other folks on the left, were very dismayed in 2000 when Gore fought to have military absentee ballots not be counted. IIRC, Gore reversed position and stopped fighting military absentee ballots due to the outcry on the left. I know I at least am very consistent in wanting to let as many people vote as possible, and I favor a liberal interpretation of the voting laws such that a minor discrepancy honestly made should not invalidate a vote. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/193 "2010-04-07T11:47:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the problem here is that Diogenes is contending that “voter fraud” and “voter registration fraud” should not be used interchangeably. That they are two completely unrelated offenses; that to speak of convictions for “voter fraud” is an insult, an insult! To those merely convicted of the crime of voter registration fraud. > > Is that it? > [@](#): > > The McCain ad accuses ACORN of “massive voter fraud.” In the final presidential debate, John McCain added that ACORN “is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy.” Sounds scary, but is it true? > > There’s no evidence of any such democracy-destroying fraud. Here’s what is true: In recent years, ACORN employees have been investigated multiple times for voter registration fraud. > … > But so far ACORN itself has not been officially charged with any fraud. Aside from the heated charges and counter-charges, no evidence has yet surfaced to show that the ACORN employees who submitted fraudulent registration forms intended to pave the way for illegal voting. Rather, they were trying to get paid by ACORN for doing no work. Dan Satterberg, the Republican prosecuting attorney in King County, Wash., where the largest ACORN case to date was prosecuted, said that the indicted ACORN employees were shirking responsibility, not plotting election fraud. > > In its defense, ACORN says that only a few of its 13,000 paid canvassers turned in any faked forms. “[T]here are always some people who want to get paid without really doing the job, or who aim to defraud their employer,” the group said in an Oct. 10 statement on its Web site. “Any large department store will have some workers who shoplift.” > > ACORN also says it cannot simply discard suspicious forms on its own, but is required by law in most states to submit to local election officials all the forms its canvassers bring in. ACORN’s Whelan told us that its own legal counsel strongly advises that the group do the same in states that don’t explicitly require it, because “only election officials are legally able to determine the validity of a voter registration application.” But ACORN says that it first flags all suspicious registrations. Staffers call the phone numbers written on completed registration forms to make sure they’re valid and also take note of incomplete or duplicate forms. The group says that it alerts election officials to forms that look fishy when it sends them in. Regarding the fines:Whelan told us that ACORN’s national management staff trains local directors and travels extensively to supervise offices, but the 2007 Washington state prosecution makes it clear that quality control is lacking in at least some outposts. Prosecutor Satterberg wrote: “We believe that ACORN’s internal quality control procedures were not just deficient but entirely non-existent when it came to the latter stages of their operation in Tacoma.” He fined the group $25,000 for failing to exercise sufficient oversight. [/quote] [http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn\_accusations.html](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html) [quote] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/194 "2010-04-07T12:22:22Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But if the question is specifically aimed at discovering and finding out what a person’s abstract notion of justice is, it seems perfectly pertinent to ask and answer such a question in those terms. For many people, there is no abstract notion of justice. Unless you count ‘my side is always right’ as an abstract notion. There are many such folks on the SDMB, and they are almost unanimously on the left. That’s what driving almost all the discussion about ACORN. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/195 "2010-04-07T13:41:23Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Regarding the fines:Whelan told us that ACORN’s national management staff trains local directors and travels extensively to supervise offices, but the 2007 Washington state prosecution makes it clear that quality control is lacking in at least some outposts. Prosecutor Satterberg wrote: “We believe that ACORN’s internal quality control procedures were not just deficient but entirely non-existent when it came to the latter stages of their operation in Tacoma.” He fined the group $25,000 for failing to exercise sufficient oversight. [http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn\_accusations.html](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html) > [@](#): > That is all quite true. However, since this was posted in 2008, there were some developments. ACORN workers in Nevada and Pennsylvania were prosecuted, and leaders of the former organization still face charges that quota systems were used to drive the registration efforts, contrary to state law in both places. [Link.](http://www.ldnews.com/news/ci_14692405) [Another link.](http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/aug/18/deal-ex-acorn-official-cops-voter-quota-scheme/) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/196 "2010-04-07T13:58:17Z")
> [@](#): > > ACORN workers in Nevada and Pennsylvania were prosecuted, and leaders of the former organization still face charges that quota systems were used to drive the registration efforts, contrary to state law in both places. True also, but it’s all the same thing alleged in the 2008 article – people were forging false voter registration records to “up” the numbers – and workers wre paid by number of names delivered, and supervisors urged to quotas. It’s voter registration fraud by workers, not voter fraud by an organization. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/197 "2010-04-07T14:07:12Z")
But if the quota system is contrary to state law (which would be smart, since it can lead to these kinds of abuses) organizations that use a quota anyway, explicit or implicit, are guilty of organizational voter registration fraud. Seems pretty simple to me. It also seems to me that if these processes are in place in the organization, they shouldn’t use their workers as fall guys. I’m not saying definitively that this happened in Nevada or Pennsylvania or other places - but there seems to be enough there for an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/198 "2010-04-07T14:20:59Z")
Well, then, where is it? The story is dated August 18 of last year. > [@](#): > > …State investigators consider Edwards the mastermind of an illegal incentive program at the local ACORN office that, with the approval of Busefink and national ACORN officials, encouraged the collection of fraudulent voter registration forms during the 2008 campaign season. > > Nevada Attorney General Catherine Cortez Masto said late Monday that Edwards has “agreed to admit his culpability, accept his punishment, and provide valuable testimony against the others involved.”… Next to a prominent picture of fearless crime-busting Atty Gen Masto. OK, well, then, has this criminal “mastermind” provided that “valuable testimony”? And then what happened? Seriously, this is all you got? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/199 "2010-04-07T14:53:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is an instructive example of how a person can have principles even when their ox is being gored. I, and many other folks on the left, were very dismayed in 2000 when Gore fought to have military absentee ballots not be counted. IIRC, Gore reversed position and stopped fighting military absentee ballots due to the outcry on the left. Not military ballots, but ballots postmarked after Election Day. You do recognize the problem there, don’t you? At least be clear about what you’re dismayed/complaining about, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/200 "2010-04-07T15:06:37Z")
I am clear on it, you little shit, but thanks for posting! They were postmarked late, but there were acceptable (IMO) reasons for that: it wasn’t an attempt at fraud. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945.md?page=11)