# NYT apologized for ACORN story, where are Doper apologies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945 "2010-04-04T20:24:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/221 "2010-04-07T15:49:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, actually they don’t. Yiou can tell by the fact that ACORN has been thoroughly investigated and found to have committed no crimes. Your insinuation that an employer is responsible for any criminal act that an employee (especially a temp worker) might commit is legally incorrect, and, frankly, asinine. What an excellent thing it is, then, that I made no such insinuation. > [@](#): > > “Incentive not to defraud?” What the fuck? It sounds like you’re saying ACORN was dressed like a whore so it got wjhat it deserved. No: what you’re missing is that ACORN is not the only, nor even the most important, victim of the fraud. While they were the ones who were directly defrauded, the real problem with the fraud is that it created extra work for public employees. And ACORN made that situation possible: without them, the extra work wouldn’t have occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/222 "2010-04-07T15:59:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sure there is: you set up systems that make the stealing difficult or nonproductive. For example, you don’t use quota programs for voter registration. They didn’t use quota progarms. > [@](#): > > You make it clear that fraudulent registrations won’t in any way benefit the person filling them out: ACORN _did_ make this clear. The people pereptrating this fraud don’t _care_ if it benefits anyone. They just want to get paid without doing the work. > [@](#): > > maybe you have employees check one another’s lists at the day’s end, with a $5 bonus for finding a fraudulent registration in the other person’s pile. This would be illegal. ACORN was not allowed to make determinations about what forms were illegal or illegal. > [@](#): > > If employees know that they won’t be rewarded for fraud, and they might jeopardize their chances of employment tomorrow, they won’t have an incentive to commit fraud. The major problem is that ACORN was not legally _allowed_ to make determinations about the validity of the registration forms. They were _legally required_ to pay the same for fake forms as for valid ones. All ACORN was allowed to do was flag them as suspicious when submitting them. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with the law, not with ACORN. Just imagine the law _did_ allow ACORN to make its own determinations about the validity of registration forms, though, and to discard the ones it concluded were faked. Do you think that would actually _pacify_ the ACORN bashers or only have increased the howling? > [@](#): > > The problem is that the employees who defrauded ACORN did so in order to gain an incentive from ACORN, whether it was a shift bonus or continued employment. If the IKEA driver is selling dope from his truck in order to gain a shift bonus or continued employment, then yeah, IKEA bears some responsibility. Cite that there would be any legal responsibility? What these day workers did was essentially the ame thing as falsifying a time card. The only victim was ACORN itself, and it’s ridiculous to say that ACORN is responsible for getting scammed, especially when they had very little legal choice about it. Once again, ACORN was required, by law, to pay for bogus registration fornms. They had no option not to. Tell me how they could have gotten around that. The fact that so few workers did this to them out of the thousands that were hired actually shows that ACORN did a fairly remarkable job of screening and training with the limited resources and legal abilities that it had. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/223 "2010-04-07T16:01:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, here’s my original post: > > It should be clear from the tone and the use of the word “say” that I’m not drawing specifics – indeed, how could I, with Lockheed not being in the voter business at all? > > But to the extent that this is a distraction form the main event, I withdraw that post, and substitute the following answer: > > _Yes. If we could point to four criminal convictions of four different workers in a period of two months for voter registration fraud (or the Lockheed industry equivalent of voter registration fraud) then it would be appropriate to apply sanctions._ Vote related fraud was not the only criterion for what constituted a covered group. You are cherry picking. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/224 "2010-04-07T16:03:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Did you read the link? It’s formal charges against ACORN: it’s **exactly** what you asked for. The second link I added (in an edit) even shows that one of the defendants is trying to sever her case from ACORN’s trial. No, it’s NOT what I asked for. I asked for a cite that they had been charged with _violating quota laws_. Read my post in contxt. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/225 "2010-04-07T16:19:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While they were the ones who were directly defrauded, the real problem with the fraud is that it created extra work for public employees. And ACORN made that situation possible: without them, the extra work wouldn’t have occurred. This does not logically fly. By the very fact that ACORN was submitting thousands of REAL registrations, it created more work for public employees. The very few fraudulent registrations (that ACORN was _legally required_ to submit) would not have changed this workload by a significant amount. Perhaps we can agree that ACORN should have done a better job vetting their workers, and should not have hired those who would take advantage of ACORN and try to get paid for not doing the work that ACORN paid them to do. Can we also then agree that the punishment for the “crime” of hiring some few dishonest workers should not be the complete destruction of the organization? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/226 "2010-04-07T16:33:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, it’s NOT what I asked for. I asked for a cite that they had been charged with _violating quota laws_. Read my post in contxt. Jesus Christ. From one of my links: > [@](#): > > ACORN officials have said Edwards acted alone in developing and carrying out the program, called “blackjack” or “21+.” > > The attorney general’s office said that under the quota system, canvassers were paid based on the number of voter registration cards they collected each day. The canvassers were to gather at least 20 completed cards daily and anyone who turned in 21 or more would be given an extra $5. > > Tying money to or setting quotas for collecting voter registration cards is illegal under Nevada law. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/227 "2010-04-07T16:42:40Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This does not logically fly. By the very fact that ACORN was submitting thousands of REAL registrations, it created more work for public employees. The very few fraudulent registrations (that ACORN was _legally required_ to submit) would not have changed this workload by a significant amount. > > Perhaps we can agree that ACORN should have done a better job vetting their workers, and should not have hired those who would take advantage of ACORN and try to get paid for not doing the work that ACORN paid them to do. > > Can we also then agree that the punishment for the “crime” of hiring some few dishonest workers should not be the complete destruction of the organization? Of course I agree with both of these statements. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. > [@Diogenes](#): > > This would be illegal. ACORN was not allowed to make determinations about what forms were illegal or illegal. This is either false or ridiculously pedantic. I am, of course, suggesting that the $5 bonus would go to an employee who flags another employee’s registration as suspicious, as long as a supervisor agrees with the flagging. The point of this bonus is to remove the incentive for making bogus registrations. Employees will by law get paid for the day’s work even if they do nothing: they just won’t get hired back the next day if they do nothing. This system would remove the incentive to do nothing but file false registrations in an attempt to look as if you did something. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/228 "2010-04-07T16:51:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Of course I agree with both of these statements. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. > This is either false or ridiculously pedantic. I am, of course, suggesting that the $5 bonus would go to an employee who flags another employee’s registration as suspicious, as long as a supervisor agrees with the flagging. The point of this bonus is to remove the incentive for making bogus registrations. Employees will by law get paid for the day’s work even if they do nothing: they just won’t get hired back the next day if they do nothing. This system would remove the incentive to do nothing but file false registrations in an attempt to look as if you did something. This would have no efect on the incentive to fill out fake registrations, only on the incentive to flag those of others. Since ACORN was not allowed to determine that even the flagged forms were fake, they were not allowed to say that the workers didn’t do the work. These are also people who don’t much care about being hired back the next day. They were looking for one easy score. And just for the record, if someone did turn in what looked to be an obviously forged set of forms, they _weren’t_ hired again. ACORN had to pay them for the day, but they did _not_ hire them back again. They didn’t need other workers to flag bad forms for them or to figure out they were being scammed. What makes you think they were given any more work once ACORN figured out they weren’t doing the work? Cite? You’re grasping at straws here. ACORN was already doing what you’re saying they should have been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/229 "2010-04-07T16:53:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This would have no efect on the incentive to fill out fake registrations, only on the incentive to flag those of others. Since ACORN was not allowed to determine that even the flagged forms were fake, they were not allowed to say that the workers didn’t do the work. > > These are also people who don’t much care about being hired back the next day. They were looking for one easy score. > > And just for he record, if someone did turn in what looked to be an obviously forged set of forms, they _weren’t_ hired again. ACORN ad to pay them for the day, but they did _not_ hire them back again. They didn’t need other workers to flag bad forms for them or to figure out they were being scammed. What makes you think they were given any more work once ACORN figured out they weren’t doing the work? Cite? > > You’re grasping at straws here. So you tell me. If the employees weren’t trying to get hired back a second day, and if they weren’t filling a quota system, why did they create fake registrations? And cite Nazi, no cite for you until you quit denying that the cites I’ve given you are exactly what you asked for. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/230 "2010-04-07T16:53:48Z")
> [@](#): > > This is either false or ridiculously pedantic. No, it isn’t: > [@](#): > > In most states, ACORN must turn in every form that is filled out. “We must turn in every voter registration card by Florida law, even Mickey Mouse,” Kettenring said. > > Well, not yet, said Jennifer Krell Davis, spokeswoman for the Florida Department of State. > > Florida does have a law saying third-party voter registration groups must turn in every form without regard to things like party affiliation, race, ethnicity or gender. So far, however, the state has not written the rules to implement it. [http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/article852295.ece](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/article852295.ece) As that report indicates, ACORN flagged suspicious entries (like a group of them all in the same handwriting), but the rule has a point – it prevents disefranchising people whose names might sound like a joke – so people really named Humbert Humbert and Bob Hope get a right to vote. And for all, I know, there really are people named Mickey Mouse out there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/231 "2010-04-07T16:55:35Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > No, it isn’t: > > [http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/article852295.ece](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/article852295.ece) > As that report indicates, ACORN flagged suspicious entries (like a group of them all in the same handwriting), but the rule has a point – it prevents disefranchising people whose names might sound like a joke – so people really named Humbert Humbert and Bob Hope get a right to vote. And for all, I know, there really are people named Mickey Mouse out there. Jesus Christ, guys: I know that. Read what I said. I did not say that the cross-check should be done so that the fake registrations wouldn’t be turned in. I did not say that ACORN should make any sort of legal determination about whether a form was officially fraudulent. I simply said that, if there were better internal controls (giving an example control off the top of my head), they wouldn’t have had such problems with fraudulent registrations. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/232 "2010-04-07T16:57:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So you tell me. If the employees weren’t trying to get hired back a second day, and if they weren’t filling a quota system, why did they create fake registrations? To get paid for the day. Duh. > [@](#): > > And cite Nazi, no cite for you until you quit denying that the cites I’ve given you are exactly what you asked for. I concede the one on the quota charges (which I didn’t read carefully enough), but there was no conviction, and that’s a separate issue anyway. The fact is that ACORN did not use a quota system, they just paid a flat fee for the day. People would scam them to get paid for a day’s work without doing a day’s work. What’s so mystifying about that? And not for nothing, but you are the one making an allegation against ACORN so you are the one who needs to back it up. If it is your assertion that ACORN had a parctice of hiring back workers who they knew had previously scammed them, then cite it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/233 "2010-04-07T17:04:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > To get paid for the day. Duh. You can’t deny an hourly worker their wages, no matter how shitty a job they do, by federal law. Duh. All you can do is fire them. Duh. > [@](#): > > I concede the one on the quota charges (which I didn’t read carefully enough), but there was no conviction, and that’s a separate issue anyway. The fact is that ACORN did not use a quota system, they just paid a flat fee for the day. People would scam them to get paid for a day’s work without doing a day’s work. What’s so mystifying about that? What’s mystifying is that you post that even after I quoted you the bit about the quota system. Here it is again: > [@](#): > > ACORN officials have said Edwards acted alone in developing and carrying out the program, called “blackjack” or “21+.” > > The attorney general’s office said that under the quota system, canvassers were paid based on the number of voter registration cards they collected each day. The canvassers were to gather at least 20 completed cards daily and anyone who turned in 21 or more would be given an extra $5. > > Tying money to or setting quotas for collecting voter registration cards is illegal under Nevada law. What’s mystifying is that you still say they didn’t use a quota system, and that you say getting paid an extra $5 for turning in 21 cards is a flat fee for the day. > [@](#): > > And not for nothing, but you are the one making an allegation against ACORN so you are the one who needs to back it up. If it is your assertion that ACORN had a parctice of hiring back workers who they knew had previously scammed them, then cite it. Goddammit, no, that’s not my assertion, and if you’d read my posts more carefully than you read my cites, you’d realize it. My assertion is that ACORN was insufficiently careful about training workers and monitoring their work, and that they therefore got taken advantage of more than they needed to, and that the offenses against them bled over into offenses against public officials who had to clean up their mess. AFAICT, ACORN agreed with what I was saying, before they went out of business. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/234 "2010-04-07T17:07:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Jesus Christ, guys: I know that. Read what I said. I did not say that the cross-check should be done so that the fake registrations wouldn’t be turned in. I did not say that ACORN should make any sort of legal determination about whether a form was officially fraudulent. I simply said that, if there were better internal controls (giving an example control off the top of my head), they wouldn’t have had such problems with fraudulent registrations. As has been explained, the only thing ACORN offices could do about it was not hire those people back again, which they didn’t. They still had to pay them for that particularly day, though, and that’s all the scammers were looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/235 "2010-04-07T17:17:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You can’t deny an hourly worker their wages, no matter how shitty a job they do, by federal law. Duh. All you can do is fire them. Duh. That’s what they DID do. What is your point? > [@](#): > > What’s mystifying is that you post that even after I quoted you the bit about the quota system. Here it is again: > > What’s mystifying is that you still say they didn’t use a quota system, and that you say getting paid an extra $5 for turning in 21 cards is a flat fee for the day. They didn’t use a quota system. You are misinformed. This was an accusation made against one office, and if such a system was used (which hasn’t been proven), it would have been done _against_ institutional policy. ACORN did not use a quota system. You are wrong about this. > [@](#): > > Goddammit, no, that’s not my assertion, and if you’d read my posts more carefully than you read my cites, you’d realize it. My assertion is that ACORN was insufficiently careful about training workers and monitoring their work Cite? > [@](#): > > , and that they therefore got taken advantage of more than they needed to, and that the offenses against them bled over into offenses against public officials who had to clean up their mess. AFAICT, ACORN agreed with what I was saying, before they went out of business. Jesus, what a load of desperate, scrabbling horseshit. Training had fuck all to do with it. They got scammed by a very few because it’s impossible to screen 100% for scammers. They did not have the option of not paying people for the day’s work, but they did have the option of not hiring them again, which is what they did. By the way, even a hypothetical quota system would not have increased incentives to scam any more than a flat fee for the day, and there wasn’t any “mess” to “clean up.” You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Fake registrations are simply discarded at the appropriate level. All registrations have to be verified regradless. This was a very few fake forms that created no extra work for anybody. ACORN actually made it a lot easier on them by flagging them. And I will point out _again_ that the only victim was ACORN itself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/236 "2010-04-07T17:27:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They didn’t use a quota system. You are misinformed. This was an accusation made against one office, and if such a system was used (which hasn’t been proven), it would have been done _against_ institutional policy. ACORN did not use a quota system. You are wrong about this. Hasn’t been proven? LHoD’s cite says that ACORN officials admitted that it was done by that one office. What more proof do you need? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/237 "2010-04-07T17:31:39Z")
That it was done at an institutional level. One office violating policy is not an idictment against ACORN. LHOD’s cite doesn’t say that ACORN officials admitted it, by the way. It quotes some prosecutor as saying they admitted it. Show me a conviction, or formal adjudication of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/238 "2010-04-07T17:44:50Z")
The story of ACORN is the stroy of an organization that was so successful that it grew too fast an didn’t create the intstitutional and internal controls that would have not created some of the controversey. It is not an evil organization, in fact it almost certainly did a lot of very good things, but it was not particularly tightly run. There can defineitly be criticism of ACORN. However, there is no denying that its failure was based on an ideologial witch hunt that demonized ACORN because they dared to try and help the inner city and other less advantaged neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/239 "2010-04-07T17:53:19Z")
At this point, I’m remembering why arguing with Dio is an exercise in futility. He misrepresents what people say, he refuses to read cites, he moves goalposts, and if an issue isn’t presented in a good vs. evil, black & white fashion, he can’t comprehend how it’s presented. If anyone else wants to discuss this, I’m happy doing so. **Gangster** I agree with your post entirely. I really regret ACORN’s demise: the good they did was far outweighed by the very trivial ills they inflicted. And the right-wing’s vicious campaign against ACORN is disgraceful: they might want to consider the beam in their own eye. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/240 "2010-04-07T18:10:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Jesus Christ, guys: I know that. Read what I said. I did not say that the cross-check should be done so that the fake registrations wouldn’t be turned in. I did not say that ACORN should make any sort of legal determination about whether a form was officially fraudulent. I simply said that, if there were better internal controls (giving an example control off the top of my head), they wouldn’t have had such problems with fraudulent registrations. ACORN does not have the right to determine if a voters registration is fake or not. There is no way to check. There are 34 people in the country named Mickey Mouse. If they tossed valid aps, they would have gotten in real trouble.They have to pass them on ,where they are evaluated. The small, small amount of illegal voters indicates the system works very well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945.md?page=13)