# NYT apologized for ACORN story, where are Doper apologies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945 "2010-04-04T20:24:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/241 "2010-04-07T18:12:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > ACORN does not have the right to determine if a voters registration is fake or not. There is no way to check. There are 34 people in the country named Mickey Mouse. If they tossed valid aps, they would have gotten in real trouble.They have to pass them on ,where they are evaluated. The small, small amount of illegal voters indicates the system works very well. I’m SO SO GLAD someone brought this up–I had no idea! If I’d known that, maybe in the very bit you fucking quoted I woulda fucking said that. You rock, **gonzomax** , you really do. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/242 "2010-04-07T18:21:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > At this point, I’m remembering why arguing with Dio is an exercise in futility. He misrepresents what people say, he refuses to read cites, he moves goalposts, and if an issue isn’t presented in a good vs. evil, black & white fashion, he can’t comprehend how it’s presented. Happens quite a lot, dunnit? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If anyone else wants to discuss this, I’m happy doing so. Well, speaking personally, I think we are largely in agreement - except that you were a supporter of ACORN and I was for the most part an opponent. But even with all of this I thought they simply had to get their house in order - a point advanced by their more honest friends. So apart from correcting the misconceptions of others (which you are doing a pretty good job of yourself) that might be it for me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/243 "2010-04-07T18:28:52Z")
Fair enough. For myself, I support them for two reasons: 1. When I worked alongside them, they had a great organizing model. Specifically, they’d go into a community and ask the people there what they needed, whether it was repaired streets or community police officers or better lighting or whatever, and then they’d help the neighborhood achieve those aims. That sort of bottom-up, rather than top-down, political action really appeals to my sensibilities. 2. Getting poor people registered to vote is huge. For a variety of reasons that we’ve hashed out here ad nauseum, poor people are underrepresented at the polls; this is a social ill that I’d love to see reduced or eliminated, and ACORN worked toward that goal. I will also say that, while they needed to get their house in order, that’s only true for very high values of house in order. Compare them to, say, Halliburton or the Catholic Church or other bodies that get federal funding despite employees who do much more harm, and it’s difficult to see a reason besides rank politics that ACORN was so heavily targeted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/244 "2010-04-07T18:57:43Z")
Is anyone’s house in such perfect order? But its not about ferreting out some trivial infraction of the law to exaggerate out of all proportion. It is about the Bush Administration using the instruments of law and justice to advance and protect their political advantage. It is the same sort of thing as using Federal attorneys to selectively enforce the law to the same advantage. Its a disgrace, and to the extent that we have tolerated it, it disgraces us. Hell, at this point in time we know that they subverted the Justice Dept to their political advantage, and whats been done about it? See any scalps hanging from teepees? See any meaningful consequence of any sort? TG, IANAL, so I’m willing to defer the technical issues of legality to our in-house counsel, but I’m willing to go way out on a limb and suggest there are likely to be some Federal laws against such willful perversion. Call it a hunch. And let us not shrink from calling out the Dems who let this thing happen without raising a finger to help. I suspect it is largely because centrist, wimp-ass, mealy-mouth, triangulated Dems were perfectly content with feeding ACORN to the wolves. I am also struck by how much of this same material was gone over with equal fervor and intensity in the thread linked upstream. How the very same half-assed justifications and bald faced lies were unmasked therein, and seem to have been forgotten by some of our tighty righty correspondents. Perhaps you guys oughta smoke more weed, or at least some, to forestall such memory issues. Apparently, abstinence isn’t working. And finally, a trivial note in reference to the late ballots in Florida. The Dems did the right thing in letting those ballots be counted, when, to strictly enforce the letter of the law, they should not have been. I would not like to see service members denied their voting rights over a technicality. But, and this is a very big but! the law was the law, both parties agreed to suspend enforcement of the law, which, of course, they are not empowered to do, however well intended. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/245 "2010-04-07T19:04:20Z")
So those Democratic prosecutors in Pittsburgh and Las Vegas looking at the registration issues with ACORN now - you’re cool with that, or not cool with that? Because one really can’t grasp your meaning from your post. Personally, I’m on board with them enforcing the law. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/246 "2010-04-07T19:13:00Z")
Yeah, let us know, won’t you, if this turns out to be anything other than an excuse to exaggerate puny technicalities into crimes. Frankly, I’m surprised you are not embarrassed to offer them. I suppose that is one of the drawbacks of sympathy for a political party that is the very embodiment and paragon of civic virtue and fair play. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/247 "2010-04-07T19:13:20Z")
They can look all they want. Who’s stopping them? Who’s saying the law should not be enforced. The issue is that no one has proven ACORN broke any laws. These invesigations are not about searching for suspects in a crime, it’s about searching for crimes to pin on a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/248 "2010-04-07T19:16:31Z")
Be careful, sir! You are very close to suggesting that this was nothing more than a political stunt, rather than a stern exercise in political virtue! Take care! After all, they already knew who was guilty, and that the crimes were grievous. It was simply a matter of discovering which specific crimes the malefactors had committed, which, you must admit, is much easier when you already know who the guilty parties are. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/249 "2010-04-07T19:37:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I can’t wait for this O’Keefe tool to get handed a little single-serving packet of grape jelly on his first day in a federal penitentary and told exactly what he needs to do with it. No dog in this fight, but what does this mean exactly? Is it a reference to something? Just seems so mysterious… ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/250 "2010-04-07T20:01:54Z")
I tried it delicately once, now I can only point you to Chris Rock’s routine entiled “The Tossed Salad Man.” Decorum, and my company’s software, prevents me from linking directly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/251 "2010-04-07T20:19:25Z")
Not all ignorance need be fought. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/252 "2010-04-07T20:28:35Z")
With respect, sir, I must disagree. Once we accept that premise, we must then decide what ignorance need not be fought, and who should shoulder that burden? You, sir? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/253 "2010-04-07T20:30:46Z")
I remember when I was growing up the “don’t litter” campaigns was just getting going. On the first Saturday of June people would gather in a local park to clean up litter and get the park ready for summer. Lots of local corporations got involved providing coffee, snacks, and supplies, including McDonalds. They provided jugs of that weird orange drink, but also an incentive program. McDonald garbage bags (McBags) were given to kids, if they filled it with garbage they got a token for a free Mcdonalds icecream. Take a guess how long it took us to figure out that we could fill the bags with anything and still get that free icecream. Sometimes incentive programs fail, I’m curious how culpable you see McDonalds in that example. Were we at that point McDonald’s employees? I’d also love to see a massive chart showing what all of the allegations against ACORN are, the locations, and actual convictions. Honestly I have no idea at this point. Quotas, incentives, gang rape, theft, voting for the Green Party. All I know is that when someone asks about one, they get a half-assed answer to a different one. Probably the most disingenuous debate I’ve seen in a long, long time. accusations have become convictions voter registration fraud has become voter fraud individuals acting on their own have become a massive organizational conspiracy All over what? Compared to the Catholic Church and it’s charities this little shit of an organization is meaningless. Compared to the billions dished out to defense contractors none of this should even register. We are so obsessed with this little pimple on our ass we’ve ignored the tumors ravaging our lymphatic system. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/254 "2010-04-07T20:35:46Z")
> [@Claptree](#): > > With respect, sir, I must disagree. Once we accept that premise, we must then decide what ignorance need not be fought, and who should shoulder that burden? You, sir? Sure! Good as any. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/255 "2010-04-07T20:35:56Z")
> [@Claptree](#): > > With respect, sir, I must disagree. Once we accept that premise, we must then decide what ignorance need not be fought, and who should shoulder that burden? You, sir? Quite. Are you not a more knowledgeable, better informed, broader minded, in short a better and wiser person for having Googled that, any momentary discomfort notwithstanding? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/256 "2010-04-08T00:50:09Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Sometimes incentive programs fail, I’m curious how culpable you see McDonalds in that example. Were we at that point McDonald’s employees? I assume that McDonald’s then passed the trash bags along to the local dump. To the extent that their poorly-considered incentive program created extra trash for the dump, then yeah, McDonald’s was culpable for that foreseeable result. If (to continue the analogy) it were illegal to offer people a reward for turning in trash, then it’d be appropriate to prosecute McDonald’s as a corporation, even if it were only a local manager who came up with the program as part of the official duties. And of course you weren’t McDonald’s employees, but that’s totally off-point. From what I’ve seen, nobody except a few Doper nutcases dispute that the people collecting voter registration cards were ACORN employees, even if only temporarily so. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/257 "2010-04-08T00:59:20Z")
It’s sort of like blaming McDonalds for offering that incentive program and then not doing enough to combat the dump overflowing with needless trash if there were also a law that McDonalds was legally required to take it all to the dump and say “hey, I don’t really think this was collected properly, but here ya go!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/258 "2010-04-08T01:06:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It’s sort of like blaming McDonalds for offering that incentive program and then not doing enough to combat the dump overflowing with needless trash if there were also a law that McDonalds was legally required to take it all to the dump and say “hey, I don’t really think this was collected properly, but here ya go!” Arguing by analogy is really confusing. But imagine these circumstances: -Given the overworked nature of our landfill staff, it’s illegal to pay people based on the amount of garbage they collect. -Some day manager at McDonald’s, unaware of the laws, enacts the aforementioned program. -There’s a lot of extra trash that therefore shows up at the landfill. -McDonald’s gets charged for the actions of their employee (as is typical), and people suggest that there should be better training put in place to avoid such an event in the future. Yes, of course McDonald’s should have brought the trash to the dump. But better yet, they shouldn’t have given an incentive for people to create extra trash in the first place. Where’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/259 "2010-04-08T01:54:27Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > No dog in this fight, but what does this mean exactly? Is it a reference to something? Just seems so mysterious… You’re probably better off not knowing, but google for “prison salad tossing.” ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945/260 "2010-04-08T02:58:36Z")
> [@Why does the Catholic Church still receive federal funding?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-catholic-church-still-receive-federal-funding/535207/53): > > It wasn’t just what they were convicted of, it was what they did when they weren’t squandering public money. This organization was responsible for promoting bad housing loans. It was also one of many organizations that were and are probably still using tax money to fund voter registration efforts that are decidedly one-sided in nature. Turns out voter fraud has nothing to do with any of this, ACORN caused the mortgage crises. The pimp thing was just a distraction. [Bank intimidation tactics to make bad loans that Fannie Mae then bought up.](http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/ACORNs-Muscle-for-Money-does-the-bidding-of-SEIU--50091427.html) **Bricker** was also nice enough to post the list of reasons why Congress killed them: > [@Bricker](#): > > Expressing the sense of Congress that the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) should lose its exemption from taxation under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986. > > Whereas in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, seven employees of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (commonly referred to as `ACORN’) were charged with filing hundreds of fraudulent voter registrations before the 2008 elections; > > Whereas in 2009 in West Reading, Pennsylvania, an ACORN employee was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records; > > Whereas in September 2009 in Miami, Florida, 11 former ACORN registration canvassers were arrested on allegations that they had submitted nearly 200 falsified registration forms; > > Whereas Washington State fined ACORN $25,000 after several employees were convicted of voter registration fraud in 2007; > > Whereas in 2007 four ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City, Missouri, for charges including identity theft and filing false registrations during the 2006 election; > > Whereas in Colorado in January 2005, two Colorado ACORN workers were sentenced to community service for submitting false voter registrations; > > Whereas in Ohio in 2004, four ACORN employees were indicted by a Federal grand jury for submitting false voter registration forms; > > Whereas in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, election officials estimate that ACORN submitted at least 1,500 fraudulent registrations in fall 2008; > > Whereas Citizens Consulting, Inc., the umbrella group controlling ACORN, was paid $832,000 by the Obama for America Campaign of 2008 for get-out-the-vote efforts; > > Whereas several other jurisdictions have also had concerns about ACORN’s fraudulent voter registration procedures, and there are an estimated 14 ongoing investigations around the country; > > Whereas most recently hidden camera investigations of ACORN offices in New York, Baltimore, and Washington, District of Columbia showed workers giving advice on how to evade taxes and conceal the nature of their illegal business; > > Whereas ACORN has received more than $53 million in direct funding from the Federal Government since 1994; and > > Whereas it is clear that ACORN has violated the spirit of entities afforded tax exempt status and should no longer be considered as such: Now, therefore, be it > Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That it is the sense of Congress that the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (commonly referred to as `ACORN’) should lose its exemption from taxation under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyt-apologized-for-acorn-story-where-are-doper-apologies/534945.md?page=14)