# NYTimes obtains partial 1995 Trump tax records **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 2, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444 "2016-10-02T01:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/241 "2016-10-04T06:27:46Z")
The “free marketplace” is as real as the unicorn and the chimera. There is not now, nor has there ever been, any such thing. As soon as the coins begin to clink, the guys with the swords begin to muscle in. After all, they are there to protect the “free marketplace”, nice little marketplace, be a shame if anything were to happen to it. What do you guess, somewhere between 3500 to 5000 b.c.e.? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/242 "2016-10-04T11:19:36Z")
Meanwhile, trying to gauge what the impact of these three pages will be, there are some interesting bits in [CNN’s recent poll’s](http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/03/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-presidential-polls/index.html) details (note poll all taken after debate and before the NYT release): > [@](#): > > … More respondents also see Trump’s refusal to release this taxes as a sign that he’s hiding something than that he’s under audit from the IRS (57% say he’s hiding something, 33% that he’s holding back due to an audit). > > Voters are in near-universal agreement, though, that paying taxes is every American’s civic duty. Nearly 9-in-10 feel that way while just 12% say they see taxes as an unnecessary burden to be avoided. Even among Trump backers, 79% see them as a civic duty. … No one wants to pay more than their fair share, I am pretty sure of that. But they want the least is to be paying their fair share while others get away with not paying theirs, even if they do it legally. The other impact has been pointed out on 538 - he needs to makes some big plays to come back and even if this did not directly hurt him it runs down his clock. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/243 "2016-10-04T11:51:09Z")
DSeid, that’s interesting. I just posted this in the “what should Hillary’s attack priorities be” thread: “There are a hundred other, more important and relevant things that should disqualify Trump in the minds of voters, and therefore in an ideal world should be the focus of Clinton’s attacks, but for some reason Trump’s legal non-payment of taxes seems to be getting some traction. So, even though I don’t fault him for this, I suppose it should be the focus of some attack ads and perhaps rally speeches, maybe for a week or so.” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/244 "2016-10-04T12:01:24Z")
Logically, you’d think there would be a widespread clamor for congressmen and senators to change the Federal tax code (and the president – including candidates to be the next one – to support and sign it), so that every wealthy person pays SOMETHING every year, even while carrying over a big loss. Any sign of a groundswell to actually change the rules, rather than merely complaining when someone abides by the current rules? (I can’t believe I’m defending Trump in any way, shape, or form, but I guess I am…maybe this will help make my many criticisms of him more credible – not that my little opinion matters much.) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/245 "2016-10-04T12:06:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No one wants to pay more than their fair share, I am pretty sure of that. But they want the least is to be paying their fair share while others get away with not paying theirs, even if they do it legally. And people want the tax system to be fair. If Joe Average has a bad year and spends his savings in order to pay his mortgage, he doesn’t get to write off the loss. If he has a really bad year and is unemployed the whole year, he doesn’t get to carry forward the loss from year to year. In fact, if he gets forgiveness from his credit card company for debt, that amount is seen as income. Carry forwards benefit only businesses and the investor class. They should probably, like most tax breaks, be phased. And twenty years is a long time. Also, they shouldn’t apply to paper losses like depreciation (though there is a recapture provision when you sell). They are useful - if you are living off investment income and social security and have to sell some stock at a loss, they are helpful to making your nest egg last. They encourage you to take risks, which is good for the economy. But there should be a call to rewrite them to make them more fair. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/246 "2016-10-04T13:14:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > How is building businesses and employing people to earn money slavery? To me that sounds like freedom to make decisions on behalf of one’s ownself and family by participating in a free marketplace. It’s not slavery, but you’ve used that descriptor for liberal policies too, IIRC. Both comparisons are equally ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/247 "2016-10-04T15:03:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You don’t think he pays sales tax? [Er… about that…](http://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanellis/2016/03/08/donald-trump-and-the-empty-jewelry-box-tax-scam) > [@](#): > > …Back in 1986 and likely for many years before, Donald Trump colluded in tax evasion with Bulgari Jewelry Store in New York, a high-end posh location with tony clientele right out of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. Here’s how the scam worked: > > Trump would go into the store with his wife, his girlfriend, his…whatever (to use his vernacular). He would then buy her an expensive necklace or wristwatch. Normally, such a transaction would face the New York city and state sales tax, which would be pretty high on luxury jewelry. > > In an illegal attempt to evade the tax, Trump “asked” the store to instead ship the jewelry to an out of state location, where no New York sales tax could be collected. In fact, the store would merely send an empty jewelry box to the location, while Trump and his lady friends walked out the door with the jewelry that very day… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/248 "2016-10-04T15:25:19Z")
There are lots of ways for the wealthy to avoid sales tax. Buy it overseas - you should get tagged at customs, but if you claim those new suits were in your luggage when you left, the customs agent is likely to shrug and let you off. I used to work for a wealthy guy who paid no sales taxes - he bought everything with a business federal tax id number “for resale” - everything from his daughters horses to his cars ran through the business. He also bought a lot of loose gems in Africa and the Far East and functionally smuggled them in through his carryon. This was a long time ago - perhaps he eventually got caught - but I sort of doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/249 "2016-10-04T15:33:45Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Logically, you’d think there would be a widespread clamor for congressmen and senators to change the Federal tax code (and the president – including candidates to be the next one – to support and sign it), so that every wealthy person pays SOMETHING every year, even while carrying over a big loss. Any sign of a groundswell to actually change the rules, rather than merely complaining when someone abides by the current rules? Yeah, I agree. But I think of it as analogous to committing other crimes. Let’s take fraud. The laws are written in a very careful way: people try to describe exactly when misleading someone else is legal, and when it’s not. Because it’s a complicated matter, the laws are complicated. It’s possible to read those laws and come up with a brand new scheme through which you can mislead people, technically staying just this side of the law, and make a lot of money by doing it. And you hire an attorney with a professional obligation to defend your claims to legality in such circumstances–just like Trump hires CPAs with a professional obligation to keep him on the legal side of the tax issue. You can stay legal without staying ethical. Your new scam that tricks elderly people intro giving you their pension might not technically violate any fraud statutes, and you might call it being smart and a good businessperson–but that doesn’t mean I, or anyone else, thinks it’s ethical. Same thing with taxes. The spirit of the law is that people who increase their wealth during a year should pay some of that increased wealth toward taxes. The tax law is very complex, and it has too many loopholes in it such that people like Trump can increase their wealth tremendously without paying taxes. That may be legal, and I don’t blame the CPAs who help him structure his wealth such that he pays no taxes. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s ethical, any more ethical than the person who defrauds grannies while staying on the technical side of legal. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/250 "2016-10-04T15:44:17Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > There are lots of ways for the wealthy to avoid sales tax. Buy it overseas - you should get tagged at customs, but if you claim those new suits were in your luggage when you left, the customs agent is likely to shrug and let you off. I remember about twenty or thirty years ago, the State of New York was cracking down on sales tax avoidance by people using schemes like Trump’s send-the-empty-box-to-the-Connecticut-house one. One particular jewelry store had done this multiple times for many customers. Another was to compare sales tax payments to customs declarations, so that if someone went overseas, bought stuff and then paid customs tax on it, they should also have paid sales or use tax to NYS. I think the state even threatened to check license plates of cars in New Jersey malls to look for New York residents buying stuff there and not paying the taxes due to the State of New York. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/251 "2016-10-04T18:09:18Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Here is the Trump statement on his fiduciary responsibility. The issue here is that it states he has a fiduciary responsibility to his business. These are person resident and non-resident state returns. Even with my S-Corps - my business is my business, and my personal stuff is my personal stuff. I can’t even write off a business lunch with my partners because I’m married to one of them. > > [https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/trump-campaign-statement1](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/trump-campaign-statement1) Gretchen Morgensen wrote about this this morning in the Times. She quotes someone as saying that the claim of fiduciary responsibility is laughable. She also says that if businesses are driven by fiduciary responsibility to minimize taxes only, all should move overseas since that does reduce taxes. I doubt Trump would agree. He criticizes companies all the time for doing things which increase their return on investment. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/252 "2016-10-04T18:11:51Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The reason you a business would not pay taxes on income because they had a previous loss is because that is what the tax code allows. Is that clear enough for you? Your questions are odd in that they display fundamental ignorance yet seem irritated that what is essentially the very basics of business finance is not being spoon fed. If you have other questions, perhaps you can number them out and we can treat this as an intro to business course. > > Businesses are allowed to carry forward losses. Individuals are allowed to carry forward capital losses. There are caveats and details of course, but those are general concepts. Do you think Trump is a genius about the tax code for knowing to carryover losses - or more likely listening to his accountants? That’s what he’s claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/253 "2016-10-04T18:34:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Gretchen Morgensen wrote about this this morning in the Times. She quotes someone as saying that the claim of fiduciary responsibility is laughable. Well, whoever she is quoting is an idiot. > [@](#): > > She also says that if businesses are driven by fiduciary responsibility to minimize taxes only, all should move overseas since that does reduce taxes. Nobody says that minimizing taxes is the only factor to be considered when determining fiduciary responsibility. I would think it was pretty obvious that taking a perfectly legal tax write-off is more a fulfillment of one’s fiduciary responsibility to one’s investors and partners than relocating a real estate company or a casino overseas. By that logic, anyone who is thinking of taking the child deduction on one’s income tax should move his family to the Bahamas. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/254 "2016-10-04T18:36:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The New York Times has callously been trying to inform people of current events since 1851 – can’t ANYONE stop them? Illegally obtained tax returns from twenty years ago is current events? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/255 "2016-10-04T18:38:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Illegally obtained tax returns from twenty years ago is current events? > > Regards, > Shodan Yes, they just got released a few days ago. Do try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![SantaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/256 "2016-10-04T18:43:35Z")
Illegally obtained? Maybe. Maybe not. [“Also, it would be perfectly legal for Maples to release her own returns, which would protect her from the legal action Trump’s lawyers promised against the paper”](https://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/did-donald-trumps-ex-wife-marla-maples-leak-his-1995-tax-return/) ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/257 "2016-10-04T18:49:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Illegally obtained tax returns from twenty years ago is current events? > > Regards, > Shodan So, if we find out tomorrow that he murdered someone in the 90s, it’s not newsworthy because it happened so long ago? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/258 "2016-10-04T18:50:00Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And people want the tax system to be fair. If Joe Average has a bad year and spends his savings in order to pay his mortgage, he doesn’t get to write off the loss. If he has a really bad year and is unemployed the whole year, he doesn’t get to carry forward the loss from year to year. In fact, if he gets forgiveness from his credit card company for debt, that amount is seen as income. The reason Joe Average doesn’t get to write off the loss is because using savings to pay a mortgage isn’t a loss. The same is true for being unemployed - that’s not a loss. Do you understand why? Debt forgiveness can actually be income though, because that’s someone giving you money. > [@](#): > > And twenty years is a long time. Also, they shouldn’t apply to paper losses like depreciation (though there is a recapture provision when you sell). Here you are mixing two concepts. Depreciation recapture is generally for personal returns where one is deducting home office use and then later selling the property and recapturing the amount depreciated in the tax basis. Paper losses for depreciation for a business are often things like equipment and physical plant. Those expenses are grouped together as business expenses when determining net income. How do you think those would be deducted against income? Typically tax depreciation is prescribed based on the type of asset, with GAAP and tax basis differing in some areas. Depreciation on assets is required because it better matches expenses to the revenues associated with the costs of those assets. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/259 "2016-10-04T18:52:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Illegally obtained tax returns from twenty years ago is current events? Is there a time limit for which new revelations of old facts become non-news? Let me guess – anything that happened to a Republican that predates Hillary’s use of email should not be considered news and just be totally buried and ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/260 "2016-10-04T18:52:59Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > So, if we find out tomorrow that he murdered someone in the 90s, it’s not newsworthy because it happened so long ago? No, evidence of a crime would be another matter. I’m sure you recognize the difference. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444.md?page=14)