# NYTimes obtains partial 1995 Trump tax records **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 2, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444 "2016-10-02T01:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/61 "2016-10-02T14:33:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Most Americans don’t pay any federal income tax. > > But of those here that do, do any of you pay more than you have to? Do you forego any deductions in order to make sure you are paying your “fair share”? I don’t. Of course I don’t pay any more taxes than I need to. But when I owe people money I actually pay them, unlike Trump who wrote off his loss and avoided paying creditors. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/62 "2016-10-02T14:39:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why should Mr. Trump, or anyone else, pay taxes on a net loss? So you think he hasn’t made a total of more than $916 million in the last 20 years? But oh yeah, according to Trump he’s worth over $4 billion now. So by his own estimate he should have paid tax on $3 billion income (at least) over the last 20 years. Yes I know it’s not that simple but it’s absurd to think that he still has a net loss from 1995 if he’s worth even half of what he says he is. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/63 "2016-10-02T14:43:53Z")
I just heard Gov. Rudy mention on Meet The Press that, hey, there are poor people who also don’t pay taxes. How could I have ever gotten the idea that Republicans utterly lack compassion and empathy? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/64 "2016-10-02T14:45:09Z")
You gotta appreciate the argument that “I’ve been freeloading off the system for years, and it’s allowed me to amass a fortune, therefore, I’m in the best position to close those loopholes and pull the ladder up behind me to make sure no one else can be as unscrupulous as I was.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/65 "2016-10-02T15:04:50Z")
Anybody who thinks Trump is going to “smash” a system that gave him a billion tax-free dollars is a fool. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/66 "2016-10-02T15:12:43Z")
Trump and Romney are evidence that our system is loaded against the working class. This is not a capitalist economy but rather a plutonomy, with plebeians paying for the republic enjoyed by the elites. This cannot be sustained ad infinitum. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/67 "2016-10-02T15:24:03Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This is not a capitalist economy but rather a plutonomy, with plebeians paying for the republic enjoyed by the elites. This cannot be sustained ad infinitum. You’re right but fixing the system would require drastic change, something like taxing based on net worth instead of income for people above a certain net worth. In todays global world it’s simply too easy to shift profits through shell companies and make them disappear, taxing based on income is essentially useless for people above a certain net worth. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/68 "2016-10-02T15:29:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why should Mr. Trump, or anyone else, pay taxes on a net loss? Maybe if he knew he couldn’t write off a nearly billion dollar loss for the next two decades, he would have made smarter business decisions. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/69 "2016-10-02T15:30:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Y’know, I cannot blame Trump on this one. He’s a crappy businessman and an amoral person, but he did not write the laws that allowed for this abuse and given the opportunity to legally massively benefit from such laws very would decline to. > > The laws that allowed (?still allow?) for this sort of shit, that allow and facilitate the 0.01% to get away paying little to nothing, accumulating wealth even \*as a result of \*running businesses into huge losses, while the rest of us pay our fair share, are to blame here. > > Now if his campaign had included identifying those laws as a problem and releasing his returns as a cogent illustration of what is allowed and should not be … t’would all be good. But given that his tax plan includes nothing of the sort? Not so good. Exactly. There’s nothing wrong, as a private citizen, with Trump’s availing himself of the breaks that the tax code makes available. But as a major public figure who has never had any trouble getting media coverage when he wanted, from the mid-1980s on, let alone as a candidate for high office, he’s had every opportunity to say, "rich people like me have this great tax setup, _but it shouldn’t exist, and I’m gonna lean on Congress to end it."_ Given that he’s been thinking of running for office for a long time ([he tried to win the Reform Party Presidential nomination in 2000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign,_2000)), so he’s had many years to address this break as a politician rather than as a self-interested private citizen. He has not done so, and I can certainly find fault with him for that. Kinda late for him to pretend to turn populist now. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/70 "2016-10-02T15:40:19Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > So you think he hasn’t made a total of more than $916 million in the last 20 years? But oh yeah, according to Trump he’s worth over $4 billion now. So by his own estimate he should have paid tax on $3 billion income (at least) over the last 20 years. Yes I know it’s not that simple but it’s absurd to think that he still has a net loss from 1995 if he’s worth even half of what he says he is. Just a quick nitpick - Trump’s income and net worth are two very different things. You can accumulate a lot of wealth without an income. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/71 "2016-10-02T15:42:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But of those here that do, do any of you pay more than you have to? Do you forego any deductions in order to make sure you are paying your “fair share”? I don’t. Let me ask you a question: if you’re at a bar and the bartender gives you a free drink - let’s say it’s worth $10 – do you give the bartender a nice tip? I sure do. I think if I were in Trump’s position, and I was in a position to save tens of millions of dollars annually in taxes over nearly two decades, I wouldn’t necessarily pay the IRS money I didn’t owe. But I’m pretty sure that a great number of charities would see very, very large checks coming their way. I would say that it would be the tip that pays back someone else’s generosity, albeit the generosity in this case is with the tax code, not a beverage. It seems that during this period of Trump’s history, he started on a plan to use other people’s money to make charitable contributions in his name, and probably used the tax savings to buy more gold toilets for his airplane or whatever. The message being sent by this “revelation” – which we all knew in our hearts was the truth anyway – is that billionaires can be real shitballs, even if they aren’t criminals. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/72 "2016-10-02T15:46:14Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Just a quick nitpick - Trump’s income and net worth are two very different things. You can accumulate a lot of wealth without an income. Well not really. At some point you have to have had an income in order to gain that wealth. And yes investment gains are a form of income, and specifically covered by capital gains tax. Trump claims to have gone from having a negative net worth in 1995 (his own words) to worth 4 billion today. Somewhere along the way he’s earned money somehow, it wasn’t all gifted to him. The problem is our taxation system is fundamentally broken for people of high net worth. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/73 "2016-10-02T15:46:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Maybe if he knew he couldn’t write off a nearly billion dollar loss for the next two decades, he would have made smarter business decisions. Yes, or he would have been superseded by someone else who _was_ smarter, which would have been to the benefit of all of us, on the treasury front at least, and likely in terms of their actual products as well. This aspect of the current tax code is a cover for people who can afford to have big paper losses in the first place–people who are _already_ rich, which is usually not the same set as the entrepreneurial innovators. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/74 "2016-10-02T15:48:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Y’know, I cannot blame Trump on this one. He’s a crappy businessman and an amoral person, but he did not write the laws that allowed for this abuse and given the opportunity to legally massively benefit from such laws very would decline to. > > The laws that allowed (?still allow?) for this sort of shit, that allow and facilitate the 0.01% to get away paying little to nothing, accumulating wealth even \*as a result of \*running businesses into huge losses, while the rest of us pay our fair share, are to blame here. > > Now if his campaign had included identifying those laws as a problem and releasing his returns as a cogent illustration of what is allowed and should not be … t’would all be good. But given that his tax plan includes nothing of the sort? Not so good. I pretty much agree with all of this. He’s under no obligation to pay more taxes than the rules require. But the rules are _fucking stupid_. Warren Buffet, probably a genuine billionaire, likes to say that he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary, _and that has to change_. Someone who managed to lose almost a billion dollars running a casino, stick investors and contractors with the bill, pay no taxes, and come out of it still rich…is not the kind of person I’d have thought would capture the loyalty of the working class. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/75 "2016-10-02T15:50:12Z")
Now I’m wondering two things: 1. Is the GOP now happy that Donald Trump has made Capital Loss Carry Forwards a hot-button political issue? 2. Did Trump get a tax refund in 92-94 FY because of retroactively applied $50m yearly capital loss deduction? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/76 "2016-10-02T15:56:44Z")
People already [digging](https://thinkprogress.org/7-tweets-by-trump-about-taxes-that-are-very-awkward-now-75b500ea4f45#.dpi895aqb) through his tweets to find the ones that make him look like a hypocrite: “Barack Obama who wants to raise all our taxes, only pays 20.5% on $790k salary.” “HALF of Americans don’t pay income tax despite crippling govt debt” “Facebook billionaire gives up his U.S. citizenship in order to save taxes. I guess 3.8 billion isn’t enough” “Trump is an American that will pay more taxes in one year than you pay in your entire life.” “Successful people work their asses off to make it, only to be punished by heavy taxes which are then squandered recklessly.” “You know what is the worst part of @BarackObama’s Tuesday speech playing class warfare–we paid for it with our tax dollars.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/77 "2016-10-02T16:12:54Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Well not really. At some point you have to have had an income in order to gain that wealth. And yes investment gains are a form of income, and specifically covered by capital gains tax. Incorrect. If I buy a house for $100,000 and three years later it’s worth $1,000,000, I don’t have a $900,000 income. When I sell it, I have capital gains of $900,000 - but only if I sell it. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/78 "2016-10-02T16:28:35Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Well not really. At some point you have to have had an income in order to gain that wealth. And yes investment gains are a form of income, and specifically covered by capital gains tax. Trump claims to have gone from having a negative net worth in 1995 (his own words) to worth 4 billion today. Somewhere along the way he’s earned money somehow, it wasn’t all gifted to him. The problem is our taxation system is fundamentally broken for people of high net worth. Not if those are unrealized gains. You only pay capital gains tax when the gains are realized. I don’t think Trump is worth anywhere near what he claims, anyway. The limited financial information he has released thus far imputes an absurd valuation for the Trump “brand” and his byzantine real estate and licensing deals are highly illiquid and extremely difficult to value. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/79 "2016-10-02T16:31:07Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Well not really. At some point you have to have had an income in order to gain that wealth. And yes investment gains are a form of income, and specifically covered by capital gains tax. Trump claims to have gone from having a negative net worth in 1995 (his own words) to worth 4 billion today. Somewhere along the way he’s earned money somehow, it wasn’t all gifted to him. The problem is our taxation system is fundamentally broken for people of high net worth. Well we don’t know how much he really is worth but do note that investments are only income once sold. Assets appreciated and held are wealth but not income. He borrowed money. Lost it. Stiffed the lenders and contractors whose money in a real sense it was . And then used that loss of money that really had not been his in any real sense to offset income of actual capital gains and other. Letting other assets appreciate into some degree of wealth without income in the meantime. Legal yes. Scummy yes. A legal con game. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/80 "2016-10-02T16:33:02Z")
He’s trying to say that no one knows what loopholes need to be closed better than someone who has taken full advantage of those loopholes. Does anyone believe he is going to take steps to insure that his children don’t get to exploit those same loopholes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444.md?page=5)