# NYTimes obtains partial 1995 Trump tax records **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 2, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444 "2016-10-02T01:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/161 "2016-10-03T10:42:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The amount of ignorance on how corporate and personal taxation works is surprising. NOLs are a legitimate business tool and several large companies take advantage of them. Places like Intel, Amazon, etc. have had years where they pay zero federal income tax. > > Minimizing tax liability is expected - anyone who doesn’t wish to do so can donate money to the IRS at their leisure. Any and all legal tax positions should be taken to minimize tax liability. Even for CPAs, the recent ethical guidelines for a tax position that was questionable stated it would be ethical to take a position if the preparer believed it would have a 1 in 3 chance or greater of prevailing in court. This has since been raised to greater than 50%. It would be ignorance if people thought his actions were illegal. Few if any folks are saying that. When folks disagree with your assessment of how the wealthy should approach tax obligations, that’s not ignorance, that’s an ethical disagreement. No, I don’t actually think that “any and all tax positions should be taken to minimize tax liability.” I think that’s a shitty approach to living in society, a fundamentally adversarial approach to the public. It’s not something that should be illegal, of course, but it is relevant to whether a person is temperamentally suited to head up government. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/162 "2016-10-03T11:47:02Z")
I think the line of attack on this has to be along the lines of “if you’re such a great businessman, how’d you lose a billion in a year?” rather than not paying taxes. The vast majority of the US tries to minimize their tax burden. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/163 "2016-10-03T11:49:52Z")
Yeah, going after his business record is the way to go. This revelation is akin to finding out that the homecoming king really has a really, really small penis. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/164 "2016-10-03T11:49:52Z")
It’s Marla. Has to be. One of the returns has the signature lines on them. There is a sticky-arrow pointing to her name, indicating need for a signature. There is only one set of returns that would have a sticky arrow pointing to Marla. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/165 "2016-10-03T11:51:29Z")
Yeah there’s also an obvious motive: her child seems to be the odd one out. Marla probably feels like she and her offspring got the short end of the stick, so this is her chance to exact a little sweet revenge. I bet there’s more to come, too. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/166 "2016-10-03T11:52:24Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I think the line of attack on this has to be along the lines of “if you’re such a great businessman, how’d you lose a billion in a year?” rather than not paying taxes. The vast majority of the US tries to minimize their tax burden. It’s actually not that good a line of attack anyway, since in his book “The Art of the Comeback” he admits to losing a billion dollars and then tells how he came back from it. So actually he can turn that into a strength. His “I don’t pay taxes because I’m smart” and “it would only be squandered anyway” lines were much more damaging in the eyes of the public IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/167 "2016-10-03T11:55:28Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > It’s Marla. Has to be. > > One of the returns has the signature lines on them. There is a sticky-arrow pointing to her name, indicating need for a signature. > > There is only one set of returns that would have a sticky arrow pointing to Marla. The messenger who was supposed to take the returns to Marla to sign could have stopped at Kinko’s and made a copy. The secretary who was supposed to give the returns to the messenger could have made a copy in case the messenger lost them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/168 "2016-10-03T11:58:11Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I think the line of attack on this has to be along the lines of “if you’re such a great businessman, how’d you lose a billion in a year?” rather than not paying taxes. The vast majority of the US tries to minimize their tax burden. Haven’t we seen Trump deal with stuff like that before? When folks came after him about the businesses that went bankrupt, he just said that he has lots of businesses and most of them profit – and he occasionally uses the bankruptcy laws to cut his losses on one of the few projects that doesn’t pan out. So figure he’ll just say he _made_ a billion or more in most years, and somebody leaked records for one of the few years that didn’t work out well, but if you saw all of his tax records you’d know that he’s long since gotten back in the black during years when he hit it out of the park – and he’d prove that by releasing all of his tax returns, except he’s under audit, and his lawyers have strongly advised him not to release them until the audit is over, but if CROOKED HILLARY will release her THIRTY THOUSAND e-mails, then he’ll release them against the advice of his attorneys just to prove that 95% of the time he’s a brilliant businessman who makes yuge profits by employing lots of people, and how many jobs have you created Hillary? Or something like that; again, isn’t that pretty much the exact move he’s used? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/169 "2016-10-03T13:08:43Z")
A question: we’re talking about Trump’s personal income taxes, not income taxes for Trump, Inc. right? I’m assuming there is a difference (correct me if I’m wrong about that). Is it possible that Trump, personally, took a uuuuuuge loss one year, but that his businesses were still doing OK? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/170 "2016-10-03T13:28:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A question: we’re talking about Trump’s personal income taxes, not income taxes for Trump, Inc. right? I’m assuming there is a difference (correct me if I’m wrong about that). Is it possible that Trump, personally, took a uuuuuuge loss one year, but that his businesses were still doing OK? It depends on how the businesses were incorporated. Both the (very small) companies I run are taxed as S-Corps - the income flows straight through to our personal taxes. I suspect that Trump organizes as C-Corps - where his companies pay taxes, then he pays (or doesn’t) taxes on the dividends - the dreaded double taxation that conservatives rail against. Some tax experts are saying its unlikely that billion dollars he lost was even his personal money - but there is apparently a loophole for that as well. If that’s the case, he’s been getting a tax break for years for losing other people’s money. Now, its legal - but it isn’t ethical. Also, Trump does not, on his individual taxes, have a fiduciary responsibility to pay as little taxes as possible. In a publicly traded company, for instance, the NYT, you do have a fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders to minimize your tax burden within acceptable levels of risk. But the claim that Trump has such a responsibility on his personal taxes, or within his privately held corporations, because he’s a businessman is bogus. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/171 "2016-10-03T13:33:49Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > It all depends on if they really made a loss that year then sure they shouldn’t pay any tax. But if they instead shifted their profits overseas to low tax regime countries, then people have a justified reason to be pissed about that. It’s almost trivially easy for any multinational company or high net worth individual to arrange to show a loss on paper in one country by exaggerating costs from a subsidiary overseas. Possibly, but this is hypothetical as there is nothing to suggest overseas income shifting. I wouldn’t be surprised if that were true though as it’s a standard practice among many large businesses. I see no ethical problems with doing so. If the rules are setup to allow it, then it would be a mistake to not take advantage of those rules. As a fiduciary to his companies, it would be questionable if he and others did not take available advantageous steps available to them. > [@BigT](#): > > You all keep saying that, but not a single one of you has followed through and answered why it’s something good, and not just a tax loophole made by the rich to benefit the rich. (or the $15 million which seems to be [made by real estate lobbyists to benefit those in real estate](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/02/the-most-shocking-part-of-donald-trumps-tax-records-isnt-the-916-million-loss-everyones-talking-about/).) You’re asking why the fundamental principle of matching income to expense is important? It benefits everyone, not just the rich. [Here is the first thing I googled.](http://www.brighthub.com/office/finance/articles/117731.aspx) coremelt also spoke to this as well. > [@](#): > > Oh, and there’s nothing remotely unusual for people not to know something that doesn’t affect their life at all and is not something that comes up in school. I don’t know why you would be surprised. What most of us know about taxes is what’s on the tax form, and maybe the deductions we qualify for. Tax policy affects everyone’s life. This isn’t about not knowing something more specific like the carried interest rule (though that’s been in the news quite a bit as well), but not knowing even the basics of how a business operates. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It would be ignorance if people thought his actions were illegal. Few if any folks are saying that. When folks disagree with your assessment of how the wealthy should approach tax obligations, that’s not ignorance, that’s an ethical disagreement. Do you think a business should pay more taxes than they owe? I understand no one is mistaking the actions as illegal - but not knowing about operating loss carry forwards, or other basic accounting and tax principles is still ignorance, illegality or not. I think it’s pretty widely believed that attempting to minimize tax liability. So at what level of income does this become unethical to you? * * * Does anyone think Amazon losing money for nearly 20 years makes them bad at business? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/172 "2016-10-03T13:34:02Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > It depends on how the businesses were incorporated. Both the (very small) companies I run are taxed as S-Corps - the income flows straight through to our personal taxes. I suspect that Trump organizes as C-Corps - where his companies pay taxes, then he pays (or doesn’t) taxes on the dividends - the dreaded double taxation that conservatives rail against. > > Some tax experts are saying its unlikely that billion dollars he lost was even his personal money - but there is apparently a loophole for that as well. If that’s the case, he’s been getting a tax break for years for losing other people’s money. > > Now, its legal - but it isn’t ethical. > > Also, Trump does not, on his individual taxes, have a fiduciary responsibility to pay as little taxes as possible. In a publicly traded company, for instance, the NYT, you do have a fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders to minimize your tax burden within acceptable levels of risk. But the claim that Trump has such a responsibility on his personal taxes, or within his privately held corporations, because he’s a businessman is bogus. OK, thanks. On that last part, I still can’t fault someone for taking a tax deduction they were legally entitled to. I can’t imagine a situation where I would give up such a deduction. I’m not sure anyone is making that claim that he has a fiduciary responsibility to do so, although at least one person did note that his accountant has such a duty to inform him of his eligibility (which makes sense to me). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/173 "2016-10-03T13:46:15Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > 1. Maybe later… > > In [this International Business Times article](http://www.ibtimes.com/30-major-us-corporations-paid-more-lobby-congress-income-taxes-2008-2010-380982) mostly focusing on companies not paying state income taxes there is this gem… > > The period being discussed is 2008-2010. So no federal or state income taxes paid by Intel for that 3 year period. > > Meanwhile, from Intel’s financial report… Can someone decipher [INCT’s 2011 annual report](http://www.intc.com/intelAR2011/financial/statements/note28/index.html) and tell us how much they paid in the years reported? It’s not exactly clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/174 "2016-10-03T13:49:32Z")
I was just watching a few Trump surrogates on TV this morning and something occurred to me: wouldn’t it just be a total disaster for Trump to actually release his tax returns after this story has broken? He’s staked out a position very clearly that he does not want to release his tax returns. Doing so would make him look weak. Like he has no stamina. No stam-in-ah. And he can’t very well sue the New York Times for printing a story if he then goes and releases all the tax returns. I just hope that Trump has the STAMINA not to release his returns. You know, for his sake. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/175 "2016-10-03T13:56:18Z")
Dumb question, but are the state returns that were released the personal income tax returns of Donald and Marla Trump or the corporate returns of the Trump Organization or another corporate entity? Because I saw Rudy Giuliani on This Week with George Stephanopoulos defending Trump and his argument was that Trump had a fiduciary responsibility to his investors to take every tax break he was entitled to. It seems to me that this argument doesn’t hold water if these were his personal returns. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/176 "2016-10-03T13:58:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It would be ignorance if people thought his actions were illegal. Few if any folks are saying that. When folks disagree with your assessment of how the wealthy should approach tax obligations, that’s not ignorance, that’s an ethical disagreement. > > No, I don’t actually think that “any and all tax positions should be taken to minimize tax liability.” I think that’s a shitty approach to living in society, a fundamentally adversarial approach to the public. > > It’s not something that should be illegal, of course, but it is relevant to whether a person is temperamentally suited to head up government. There is nothing inherently immoral about not paying more than you legally owe. I don’t even think this is an issue of ethics. This is more about ignorant, low net worth people displaying class envy. I’m sure Trump would have rather had a 900 million gain and paid taxes on that than taking a 900 million loss that he can use to offset federal income tax. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/177 "2016-10-03T14:01:58Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Possibly, but this is hypothetical as there is nothing to suggest overseas income shifting. I wouldn’t be surprised if that were true though as it’s a standard practice among many large businesses. I see no ethical problems with doing so. If the rules are setup to allow it, then it would be a mistake to not take advantage of those rules. As a fiduciary to his companies, it would be questionable if he and others did not take available advantageous steps available to them. > > You’re asking why the fundamental principle of matching income to expense is important? It benefits everyone, not just the rich. [Here is the first thing I googled.](http://www.brighthub.com/office/finance/articles/117731.aspx) coremelt also spoke to this as well. > > Tax policy affects everyone’s life. This isn’t about not knowing something more specific like the carried interest rule (though that’s been in the news quite a bit as well), but not knowing even the basics of how a business operates. > Do you think a business should pay more taxes than they owe? I understand no one is mistaking the actions as illegal - but not knowing about operating loss carry forwards, or other basic accounting and tax principles is still ignorance, illegality or not. I think it’s pretty widely believed that attempting to minimize tax liability. So at what level of income does this become unethical to you? > > * * * > > Does anyone think Amazon losing money for nearly 20 years makes them bad at business? At what level of income? Usually a dollar more than the one complaining makes. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/178 "2016-10-03T14:05:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > This is more about ignorant, low net worth people displaying class envy. “Class envy” is not a phrase I ever thought I would hear applied to Trump. If you know what I mean. And I think you do. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/179 "2016-10-03T14:11:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > There is nothing inherently immoral about not paying more than you legally owe. I don’t even think this is an issue of ethics. This is more about ignorant, low net worth people displaying class envy. > > I’m sure Trump would have rather had a 900 million gain and paid taxes on that than taking a 900 million loss that he can use to offset federal income tax. So, do we have any evidence yet that Trump was actually out of pocket $916,000,000? Or was it basically a paper loss? I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be skeptical until he produces the long-form documentation that would prove that he really did lose that much money. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444/180 "2016-10-03T14:16:39Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So, do we have any evidence yet that Trump was actually out of pocket $916,000,000? Or was it basically a paper loss? > > I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be skeptical until he produces the long-form documentation that would prove that he really did lose that much money. What is a paper loss and how do you use that to offset income? My understanding is the losses and gains need to be realized via a sale before they impact taxes, typically. A paper loss, in my understanding, is you don’t sell the asset but the value is estimated to be less for real estate or the share value is currently less for equities. I currently have a paper loss, as I understand it, in one of my mutual funds. I can’t use that as an offset for other capital gains since I haven’t sold it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-obtains-partial-1995-trump-tax-records/767444.md?page=10)