# NYTimes Op-Ed: Transgender vs. Cisgender view of "Woman" - grabbing popcorn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886 "2015-06-07T13:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/21 "2015-06-08T17:24:13Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Again, it is not my place to offer an opinion here. Bullshit. Anyone has a right to an opinion on anything in a free society. Those who would try to silence opinions on issues do so from dark dishonest motives. This is an issue of social construct; not science. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/22 "2015-06-08T17:25:06Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I read the piece yesterday and while I think the author is a bit hysterical about the subject, she makes some very good points. Why is it so-so-so important to take Jenner at instant face value as a “woman” - simply because s/he says to - when it’s often so-so-so ‘demeaning’ to make assumptions about women-by-birth? I think it’s because you should pretty much take what anyone says about themselves and their experiences at face value. The problem is if you extrapolate that one person’s experience to the whole group that they belong to. I don’t think I’ve seen anything from Jenner where she says she speaks for all women. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Jenner is a man who lived 60 years as a man, who’s thought about being a woman for a long time, and is finally acting out the gender role. That makes hir a noob at the job and in no way an expert on what a woman-by-birth thinks, feels or “knows.” > > The author was correct to point this out, however contra-trans-squee it may be. She’s not an expert on what a woman-by-birth thinks, feels, or knows, but she’s an expert on what she herself knows. If she has said that all women think ‘X’, then it should be pointed out to her that you can’t make generalizations like that. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/23 "2015-06-08T17:31:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s the point I was talking about. It’s wrong for you or me or anyone else or society in general to tell somebody who they are or what they are. The only person who has the right to decide who and what they are is the individual themselves. Including paranoid schizophrenics or other mentallly ill people? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/24 "2015-06-08T17:32:30Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > It just can’t be true that the trans community is really pushing to use the term “front hole” instead of “vagina”. I have to call horseshit on that bit quoted from the NYT. Good freaking God, it’s hard to be more immersed in the trans community than me, and I’ve NEVER once heard anyone even as a joke call a vagina “front hole.” W.T.F.? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/25 "2015-06-08T17:38:05Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I read the piece yesterday and while I think the author is a bit hysterical about the subject, she makes some very good points. Why is it so-so-so important to take Jenner at instant face value as a “woman” - simply because s/he says to - when it’s often so-so-so ‘demeaning’ to make assumptions about women-by-birth? > [@LonghornDave](#): > > II find most of this language policing stuff ridiculous, but I generally play along.\* I recognize that comes across as patronizing, but so be it. It doesn’t bother me much to use the language that others insist on. You’ve got a couple of prolific language policers potentially butting heads here in the more outspoken subsets of the feminist and transgender communities. I think it might be interesting watching them go at it. And speaking of language policing, we had a meltdown on this very message board a while back (the big misogyny flameout, remember?), one outcome of which was that we shouldn’t use the word “hysterical” in any thread on the subject of gender issues. IIRC, there were mod notes given over that. I’m not giving a link (find it yourself if you want) because it will inevitably re-ignite that whole volcano. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/26 "2015-06-08T17:43:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s the point I was talking about. It’s wrong for you or me or anyone else or society in general to tell somebody who they are or what they are. The only person who has the right to decide who and what they are is the individual themselves. Do you apply the same reasoning to furries or otherkin? If some moron claims he is a wolf or a dragon, are you seriously going to claim that his delusions trump reality and that he is not really a human being? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/27 "2015-06-08T17:47:45Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Do you apply the same reasoning to furries or otherkin? If some moron claims he is a **wolf or a dragon** , are you seriously going to claim that his delusions trump reality and that he is not really a human being? One would have to live as a wolf or a dragon for some length of time before being taken seriously. Once the wolf or dragon re-assignment surgery is completed, then there can be no further doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/28 "2015-06-08T17:53:07Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I have to call horseshit on that bit quoted from the NYT. Don’t you mean, as the master put it a while back… h’or’sh’it? Personally, I think that’s hyst_r_c\*l. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/29 "2015-06-08T17:59:44Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I have to call horseshit on that bit quoted from the NYT. Good freaking God, it’s hard to be more immersed in the trans community than me, and I’ve NEVER once heard anyone even as a joke call a vagina “front hole.” W.T.F.? I hope you’re wrong. I look forward to the day when people get upset over others not properly calling it a front hole. I’ll be an early adopter. I was too slow on halting the use of retard/retarded. I probably use the wrong terms for disabled/handicap. I still have to stop and think a second on what is exactly meant by transgender woman. But I’m not going to be on the wrong side of history on front hole. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/30 "2015-06-08T18:05:55Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > I hope you’re wrong. I look forward to the day when people get upset over others not properly calling it a front hole. I’ll be an early adopter. I was too slow on halting the use of retard/retarded. I probably use the wrong terms for disabled/handicap. I still have to stop and think a second on what is exactly meant by transgender woman. But I’m not going to be on the wrong side of history on front hole. Where is George Carlin when you need him? :o ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/31 "2015-06-08T18:19:12Z")
Transwomen - welcome to the club. Here in womanhood you get accused of not being a real woman if you don’t have a vagina. But that isn’t the only hurdle. You aren’t a real woman if you’ve never had kids. If your kids aren’t bio. If you didn’t breastfeed them. If you are pro-life. If you are pro choice. If you work in a male dominated profession. If you can’t walk in high heels. If you are overweight. If you are in high school and you aren’t a cheerleader and aren’t interested in dating someone on the football team. Then there are the gender traitors…allow yourself to be penetrated by a man - you might be a woman, but you are definitely a gender traitor. Be a stay at home mom instead of pursuing an MBA and tackling the corporate patriarchy - gender traitor. I guess it doesn’t come as any surprise to me that transwomen feel like they aren’t universally embraced by their cis sisters. Their cis sisters have been implying that each other aren’t “real women” for so long. The rules are shifting and contradictory. And I’ll offer some advice. Those bitches that don’t accept you for being you, you aren’t going to change them. Whether you are a pro-life quiverful woman who sees her role as to be the helpmate to a man or a militant lesbian feminist or any variation thereof, someone will question it. You know what, that’s their right, and you have to let it go. When those of us who didn’t breastfeed our kids can be consistantly treated as real women, we might make some progress with women who happen to have an XY set. (On the other hand, you don’t win points with women like me for presenting yourself as facelifted, botox’d, sex kittens on the cover of national magazines. Wasn’t fond of it when Marissa Mayer did it either though, and - to the best of my knowledge - she’s a ciswoman - it isn’t a slam on transgendered issues - I just don’t like to watch powerful woman being portrayed as sex kittens. [Yahoo's Marissa Mayer: Hail to the Chief — Vogue | Vogue](http://www.vogue.com/865211/hail-to-the-chief-yahoos-marissa-mayer/)) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/32 "2015-06-08T18:19:17Z")
When I googled “front hole” I got years old references. So while I don’t know how much a push there is to use the phrase, the article didn’t just pull it out of their back hole. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/33 "2015-06-08T18:29:53Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > If you didn’t breastfeed them. Given the advantages that this gives to the baby, may I please ask if there is a legitimate reason not to breastfeed? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/34 "2015-06-08T18:34:12Z")
I haven’t read the article, but I have perused online discussions about it. It is sparking an interesting discussion, actually. I’ve learned how diverse transgender people are. It shouldn’t be surprising, but they are just as diverse as anyone else. A lot of transwomen resent how \*others \* expect them to perpetuate stereotypes of feminimity. Apparently, in order to be taken seriously by medical practitioners and other so-called “allies”, transwoman often feel pressure to glam themselves up. Heels, skirts, makeup, the whole nine yards. Because otherwise, the degree of their gender dysmorphia is questioned and people will mistakenly assume they aren’t really serious about transitioning. In other words, the perpetuation of stereotypes is imposed externally. It’s the game you play to get hormones and surgery. If we lived in an another kind of society, one where women walked around with pineapples on their head, then you’d see transwomen walking around with pineapples on their head. It’s not their biology dictating that preference. But their desire to fit in. So some “tomboy” transwomen or transwomen who like to dress casually just like many ciswomen, do not appreciate when a transwoman like Caitlyn is essentially praised for entrenching the stereotypes. It makes it that much harder for people to really understand that transgenderiism isn’t about clothing or make-up, but about identity and feelings. It’s about the brain. Not about how well you wear heels. I have to say I’d never heard this opinion expressed before. I suppose I thought transwoman had a different take on what it means to be a woman than I do, which is possibly why transgenderism has always been something I don’t really get (though I support, politically-speaking). My eyes have been opened, even if the article itself isn’t that good (like I said, I haven’t even read it.) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/35 "2015-06-08T18:53:02Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You aren’t a real woman if you’ve never had kids. If your kids aren’t bio[…] > Then there are the gender traitors…allow yourself to be penetrated by a man - you might be a woman, but you are definitely a gender traitor. So you can only be a real non-traitor woman if your male life partner passes you the turkey baster? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/36 "2015-06-08T19:01:56Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > So you can only be a real non-traitor woman if your male life partner passes you the turkey baster? This is a whoosh IMO. She is being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/37 "2015-06-08T19:21:45Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Given the advantages that this gives to the baby, may I please ask if there is a legitimate reason not to breastfeed? IANAW, but I understand there are occasions when it is inconvenient, and there are also women for whom it’s physically difficult/impossible, e.g. a breast cancer survivor with a double mastectomy. None of which really matters to the question of whether someone should be regarded as a real woman if they have never actually breastfed a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/38 "2015-06-08T19:32:03Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Given the advantages that this gives to the baby, may I please ask if there is a legitimate reason not to breastfeed? Tons of reasons. Some mentioned above; another reason is the lack of a child. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/39 "2015-06-08T19:43:06Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > IANAW, but I understand there are occasions when it is inconvenient, and there are also women for whom it’s physically difficult/impossible, e.g. a breast cancer survivor with a double mastectomy. > > None of which really matters to the question of whether someone should be regarded as a real woman if they have never actually breastfed a baby. Obviously if a woman physically can’t…and the post said **never** , not when its inconvenient which is perfectly reasonable, > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Tons of reasons. Some mentioned above; another reason is the lack of a child. Besides the stupid (doesnt have a child), or if there is a medical reason; what would a legitimite reason to not breast feed? I knew a woman who refused to breast feed because she didnt want to ruin her nipples. The advantages that breast milk and the actual act of breast feeding gives to babies are many. If you wanna argue that its a womans body and she can do what she pleases…what would stop them from doing drugs or smoking? In the very small number of cases what are the rights of the child? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/40 "2015-06-08T19:52:58Z")
I think these breastfeeding questions belong in their own thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886.md?page=3)