# NYTimes Op-Ed: Transgender vs. Cisgender view of "Woman" - grabbing popcorn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886 "2015-06-07T13:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/41 "2015-06-08T19:57:25Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > I hope you’re wrong. I look forward to the day when people get upset over others not properly calling it a front hole. I’ll be an early adopter. I was too slow on halting the use of retard/retarded. I probably use the wrong terms for disabled/handicap. I still have to stop and think a second on what is exactly meant by transgender woman. But I’m not going to be on the wrong side of history on front hole. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/42 "2015-06-08T19:59:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > A lot of transwomen resent how \*others \* expect them to perpetuate stereotypes of feminimity. Apparently, in order to be taken seriously by medical practitioners and other so-called “allies”, transwoman often feel pressure to glam themselves up. Heels, skirts, makeup, the whole nine yards. Because otherwise, the degree of their gender dysmorphia is questioned and people will mistakenly assume they aren’t really serious about transitioning. In other words, the perpetuation of stereotypes is imposed externally. It’s the game you play to get hormones and surgery. Bingo. I just finished a public debate with a psychiatrist who fully expects that ALL transgender women who come into her office WILL be wearing a skirt and heels, or else they “aren’t taking this seriously.” ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/43 "2015-06-08T20:26:15Z")
Well, what if they are women that choose not to dress that way? What if Jenner had retained the name Bruce, continued to publicly dress as he always had appeared to, wore his hair the same way, had and does not plan to have any surgeries, did not wear nail polish or make up, and generally presented himself to the world exactly as he has for decades–but announced that he is a woman? Would people accept this as true? Can I just announce my gender as whatever I wish and dispense with superficial modifications and expect anyone to go along with it? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/44 "2015-06-08T20:33:25Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Can I just announce my gender as whatever I wish and dispense with superficial modifications and expect anyone to go along with it? I’d bet against it. After all, there are completely heterosexual men who love to dress as women down to tucking tampons in their panties. But as the Caitlyn Jenners of the world are about the publicity and attention, playing the role to the Annie Leibowitz’ed max is essential; as long as it was Bruce looking a little fey in male garb, it couldn’t be real. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/45 "2015-06-08T20:48:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > 😕 It’s a hilariously ridiculous term that also seems utterly juvenile and crude. I’m all for the evolution of language, whether for PC-type reasons or just updated slang. As terms change half the time I recognize the value in the new language. A lot of the time though I think it is a little pointless and stupid; I might go along with it, but I can’t help the way I feel. No matter what there will always be the language police ready to explode over every perceived insult if people don’t adopt or use the new terms. There’s no doubt that if somehow, someway “front hole” catches on, there will be plenty of righteous indignation when people don’t adopt it early enough. It’s like a South Park episode come to life. I hope it catches on because it is so hilariously stupid and yet some people will be so melodramatic over it. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/46 "2015-06-08T20:52:29Z")
Can I ask a question of anyone who cares to answer it? Do you feel like you have a male or female brain, or just a human brain? Personally I see a big difference between Jenner saying _she_ was born with a female brain and Summers making statements about _all_ female brains. The nytimes article criticism doesn’t seem valid to me. But having said that, I’ve never thought of myself as having a male brain. It’s just a brain that happens to be in a body with male genitalia and the characteristic look of a man. I definitely have a lifetime of experiences of a man, and between those experiences and my body I’m left without any doubt about my gender. But my mind itself just feels like a human mind. It has some masculine qualities and some feminine qualities. None of them seem inconsistent with my highly male body or highly male life experiences. I’m genuinely curious… not trying to make some kind of point. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/47 "2015-06-08T21:12:36Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Can I just announce my gender as whatever I wish and dispense with superficial modifications and expect anyone to go along with it? I’m going to list the things that are important to me in life. 1. My family. 2. Doing good in the world. 3. Dungeons and Dragons. 4. Being a great teacher. 5. Peanut Butter M&Ms (I might be hungry right now and my rankings are affected). 6. Beauty. … 1,057) Hippos 1,058) Eating all the cream cheese before it becomes crusty. 1,059) Or moldy, because that shit’s nasty. … 2,048,948) Arguing with you over what gender you are. 2,049,948) Correctly numbering this list. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/48 "2015-06-08T21:22:19Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Can I ask a question of anyone who cares to answer it? > > Do you feel like you have a male or female brain, or just a human brain? > > Personally I see a big difference between Jenner saying _she_ was born with a female brain and Summers making statements about _all_ female brains. The nytimes article criticism doesn’t seem valid to me. > > But having said that, I’ve never thought of myself as having a male brain. It’s just a brain that happens to be in a body with male genitalia and the characteristic look of a man. > > I definitely have a lifetime of experiences of a man, and between those experiences and my body I’m left without any doubt about my gender. But my mind itself just feels like a human mind. It has some masculine qualities and some feminine qualities. None of them seem inconsistent with my highly male body or highly male life experiences. > > I’m genuinely curious… not trying to make some kind of point. I’ve wondered about that too, and I think that’s the disconnect that a lot of people have regarding transgender people. I’m a cisgender woman, and I don’t feel like I have a female brain. I do feel like a woman and do fulfill some female traits, but I don’t know how much of it is from my brain, and how much is because of society’s expectations. It’s hard to fully understand what it must be like to have a man’s body and feel like you have a woman’s brain. But I know there have been plenty of people who have said they feel that they have the disconnect between their body and brain in terms of gender. And there have been neuroscientists who have shown the same thing. I don’t think I could ever fully understand what it’s like to be transgender, or color blind, or to want to run marathons and be really good at it. It’s just not how my brain works. But when people say their brains work a different way, and there’s no reason for me to doubt them, and it causes no harm to me or others, then I see no problem in believing them and supporting them as necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/49 "2015-06-08T22:38:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Transwomen - welcome to the club. Here in womanhood you get accused of not being a real woman if you don’t have a vagina. But that isn’t the only hurdle. You aren’t a real woman if you’ve never had kids. If your kids aren’t bio. If you didn’t breastfeed them. You forgot the vagina birth vs. cesarean birth pairing, and for those giving vagina birth, natural vs. medicalized. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/50 "2015-06-08T22:39:03Z")
I think we are going to have to get to more of a point of gender fluidity in the future. Right now, I do see why some people feel that the fact that many transwomen act stereotypically feminine reinforces discriminatory attitudes. I also have seen how hard it is for a non-stereotypically feminine transwoman to find her place in society (like the one I knew who described herself as “a big butch dyke”). My attitude is that people can designate themselves however they want but I do see where language policing can get out of hand. If you are talking about abortion, it is somewhat cumbersome to say “all persons who are physically capable of becoming pregnant” but it can be done. FWIW, I had heard “front hole” as a term used by gay transmen who didn’t want to consider their body part a vagina but still enjoyed sexual experiences using that body part. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/51 "2015-06-08T22:48:06Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Given the advantages that this gives to the baby, may I please ask if there is a legitimate reason not to breastfeed? Sure. Women who have had breast cancer may no longer have breasts with which to breastfeed (it’s a bit rare for such women to give birth, but it’s happening more often these days). Some women, for unexplained reasons, really don’t produce sufficient milk. This is why in the old days they had wet nurses (well, one reason) and perhaps in such circumstances in the very distant past other women in the family or community would help out. Quite a few drugs can be transmitted from mother to baby via breast milk. If such medications are necessary for the mother’s health or life then yeah, use a bottle. Some diseases, such as HIV or tuberculosis, can be transmitted via breast milk - why take the chance? If the women MUST work to survive financially and her employee is an asshole that makes it impossible or nearly so for her to express milk and store it, bottle-feeding might be the only practical solution. This is becoming less common, but it still happens, especially to poor women. Ironically, being a doctor is a also a profession that makes it difficult to both work and breastfeed for institutional reasons. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/52 "2015-06-08T22:53:44Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > FWIW, I had heard “front hole” as a term used by gay transmen who didn’t want to consider their body part a vagina but still enjoyed sexual experiences using that body part. I can’t be the only one confused by this. By gay transmen, I think you mean a person that was born female, identifies as a man, hasn’t had a sex change operation so still has a vagina, has sex with men, and presumably this sex involves a man putting his penis in the transman’s vagina, that he now calls a front hole. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/53 "2015-06-08T22:58:58Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Do you feel like you have a male or female brain, or just a human brain? To be honest, I just feel like I have a brain. I vacilate between alien and human. 🙂 Sometimes I don’t like my female form. I wish it was less feminine and more androgynous. I don’t have big boobs, but I still wish they were smaller. But except for when the menstrual cramps are super bad (or when I’ve had my intellect dismissed at work), I’ve never thought “I wish I were a boy!” I might not be in lurve with being a woman, but it’s not an identity that I reject. However, I have to appreciate the advantage I have in being born a female. It’s likely if I had been born a guy, my feminine traits would be much more obvious to me and everyone else. Instead of being mildy “gender ambiguous”, I’d be a full-fledged “gender nonconformist”. I’d likely be a lot more unhappier with myself and probably want to do something about it. Sometimes I wonder if personality was divorced more from gender, then maybe there wouldn’t there would be as many cases of “gender nonconformity” or “gender dysmorphia”. If little boys were allowed to wear dresses, maybe they would just grow up identifying themself as a boy who likes dresses rather than as a girl stuck in a boy’s body. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/54 "2015-06-08T23:06:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You forgot the vagina birth vs. cesarean birth pairing, and for those giving vagina birth, natural vs. medicalized. I “forgot” a ton of times I, or someone else, has been made to feel less than a complete woman because we aren’t something or didn’t do something. We can be a bitchy, clicky, exclusionary gender (we can also be warm, nurturing, selfless). And yes, I’m being sarcastic, but its ALSO true that the definitions of womanhood are very contradictory - no one can be a complete woman to all people. Its impossible to be both a woman from a Conservative Christian point of view and meet all the expectations of womanhood that the extremists of the feminist movement would like to foist on you. At sometime, every characteristic of womanness has been held up as ideal - or torn down and the possessors of that attribute have had their womanness questioned. Is it any surprise when we judge a woman so harshly over what she chooses (or, in many cases, would love to choose but can’t) to feed HER infant - choosing or not choosing to use HER body to do so (but when it comes to school lunch funding, we nearly stop caring what goes into societies children) that we judge someone who grew up with the privileges of a man who now identifies as a woman? Shocker. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/55 "2015-06-08T23:15:23Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > This is a whoosh IMO. She is being sarcastic. I guess you’ve never read a blog written by a lesbian separatist. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/56 "2015-06-08T23:27:26Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > This is a whoosh IMO. She is being sarcastic. I think she’s referring to the radfem school of thought that _all_ PIV is rape, no women enjoys it and those that ‘think’ they do mistake the reduced pain of submitting to their rapist as pleasure. Anyone who resists this impeccable logic is a gender traitor. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/57 "2015-06-08T23:41:35Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Given the advantages that this gives to the baby, may I please ask if there is a legitimate reason not to breastfeed? I chose not to breastfeed–did not try and did not want to try. Since they are my breasts, it was a legitimate decision. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/58 "2015-06-08T23:45:16Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t be the only one confused by this. By gay transmen, I think you mean a person that was born female, identifies as a man, hasn’t had a sex change operation so still has a vagina, has sex with men, and presumably this sex involves a man putting his penis in the transman’s vagina, that he now calls a front hole. Is that correct? Yes, with the caveat that “sex change operation” is a nonspecific term. I think the term to use would be a transman who has not had bottom surgery (but presumably could have had top surgery and be on hormones). ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/59 "2015-06-09T00:30:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I guess you’ve never read a blog written by a lesbian separatist. Blog? Heck that school of thought predates blogs and goes back to when feminists wrote books and journal articles and ran off newsletters on the mimeograph. I think I might still have some books with essays that express that opinion in my basement. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/60 "2015-06-09T01:04:10Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Can I ask a question of anyone who cares to answer it? > > Do you feel like you have a male or female brain, or just a human brain? Eh, a female brain, I guess - but how would I know? It’s not as though I can experience what it’s like to be a man _or_ other women. What does make me “feel like a woman” is mostly a summation of having to deal with the realities of female biology, and the sociological aspect of having been treated like a girl since birth and having a host of gender-specific expectations placed upon me due to being female. Given these things I don’t understand how someone can passionately declare that they must have a brain of the opposite gender given they didn’t grow up with either thing to build that reality for them, and again, how could you know what it’s like to be the opposite gender? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886.md?page=4)