# NYTimes Op-Ed: Transgender vs. Cisgender view of "Woman" - grabbing popcorn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886 "2015-06-07T13:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/61 "2015-06-09T01:52:35Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Eh, a female brain, I guess - but how would I know? It’s not as though I can experience what it’s like to be a man _or_ other women. . . . I have a huge faith in the universality of human thought, and in the skills of really good writers. Enough writers have penned books about “What it’s like” that I feel I do (kind of) know. You’re right, we can’t experience life from anyone else’s point of view, but I think we can “get the message” from reading well-written books. Part of this is that men and women aren’t greatly different. It isn’t like cats and dogs. Not even like bulldogs and pekingeses. Maybe a little like German Shepherds and Saint Bernards. As to brain type, while I do think there are some hard-wired differences between the sexes when it comes to cognition, I believe that our upbringing makes a slightly greater difference. If you raised a boy exactly the way girls are raised…and vice-versa…I think there would be some dissonance. But not as much as many may believe. It isn’t guaranteed that Achilles, raised as a girl, would grab for the sword and not the doll. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/62 "2015-06-09T01:55:44Z")
I thought they’d established that estrogen/testosterone ratios caused structural changes in the developing brain, and variations were considered a contributing factor in gender issues. Is that just speculative, or was it debunked and I didn’t get the memo? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/63 "2015-06-09T02:00:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If little boys were allowed to wear dresses, maybe they would just grow up identifying themself as a boy who likes dresses rather than as a girl stuck in a boy’s body. No cite, but a while back I read an article about little boys who have an obvious preference for stereotypically “girlish” pursuits such as playing with dolls or dressing up in tutus. It mentioned that according to some longitudinal study on the subject, very few of these children ever identify as girls/women. The vast majority identify as boys/men as they grow up, with about a 50/50 split between gay and straight. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/64 "2015-06-09T02:37:13Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Given the advantages that this gives to the baby, may I please ask if there is a legitimate reason not to breastfeed? Despite the hysteria around this issue, after controlling for all variables, there is no evidence of any benefit at all to the baby. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/65 "2015-06-09T03:11:40Z")
Yeah, I don’t understand the part about having a ‘female brain’. Is that the kind that is not good at math, can’t reverse park, and likes pink, or what? I don’t think that Caitlyn Jenner even knows what she means by it. But I think she means that her identity as female is hard-wired into her, not that her brain configuration is 99.7% similar to the established standard for female brains and that she is therefore a woman. As for the Vanity Fair cover, it’s not like they don’t always present all women that way anyway. She’s a celebrity; that’s the business. She was hot as a guy, and she still has that regularity of features and proportions, plus she’s getting cosmetic surgery, so of course she looks good. It would be kinda perverse to get surgery to make you look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/66 "2015-06-09T03:47:39Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Including paranoid schizophrenics or other mentallly ill people? Obviously a person should be a mentally competent adult to make decisions like this. But there’s no evidence that Caitlyn Jenner is mentally incompetent. Unless you’re suggesting that anyone who is transgendered is by definition mentally incompetent. And if you’re not making that argument stick to the topic and don’t try to divert it to the issue of mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/67 "2015-06-09T03:49:36Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Given the advantages that this gives to the baby, may I please ask if there is a legitimate reason not to breastfeed? Can’t get the baby to latch. My first was a champ who went for two years. My second was a lazy nurser who refused to latch and wanted a bottle so I pumped and sometimes supplemented with formula. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/68 "2015-06-09T04:00:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Bingo. I just finished a public debate with a psychiatrist who fully expects that ALL transgender women who come into her office WILL be wearing a skirt and heels, or else they “aren’t taking this seriously.” I’m curious what she expects transgender men to do in order to prove they’re taking their masculinity seriously. Spit a lot? Buy season tickets for the local sports team? Start a fist fight? Bring in the herd to Dodge City? Avenge a dead partner? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/69 "2015-06-09T04:49:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m curious what she expects transgender men to do in order to prove they’re taking their masculinity seriously. Spit a lot? Buy season tickets for the local sports team? Start a fist fight? Bring in the herd to Dodge City? Avenge a dead partner? I suppose they could watch ‘But I’m a Cheerleader’ for some suggestions. :rolleyes: (not at you) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/70 "2015-06-09T04:59:18Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > I can’t be the only one confused by this. By gay transmen, I think you mean a person that was born female, identifies as a man, hasn’t had a sex change operation so still has a vagina, has sex with men, and presumably this sex involves a man putting his penis in the transman’s vagina, that he now calls a front hole. Is that correct? The “rule of thumb” in this situation is: 1. Take the gender first - transman - male. 2. Then apply the sexuality modifier - gay. So a gay transman is a person who used to live in society as a woman, who most likely was born with XX chromosomes and was transgender, who changed their gender status in society to male, but is still attracted to men. It’s the analogue of me being a lesbian transwoman. I have to say LongHornDave, being an engineer in the power industry I’ve liked and respected much of what you’ve had to say on this message board. But I cannot tell if you’re trying to have “fun” with this topic or not. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, but some of your posts seem to be mocking people like me. I assure you that the vast majority of transgender people do not want to be on a reality show, and do not want to be social justice warriors inventing new and sometimes bizarre phrases and words. When I introduce people who have little to no exposure to the transgender community to my friends, a frequent comment is “but…they’re all so _normal._” The vast majority of my people want only to submerge and put this in our past, and move on as happier, healthier, positive and productive people. There are fringes in any group of people, and sometimes those fringes, for one reason or another, suddenly get a lot of undue media attention. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/71 "2015-06-09T05:09:06Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I chose not to breastfeed–did not try and did not want to try. Since they are my breasts, it was a legitimate decision. Bullshit. You denied your child both desperatly needed antibodies and a sense of bonding that only comes from breastfeeding. If you didnt want to raise your child the right way you shouldnt have had one. A child isnt your property. A child isnt a pet. Its child abuse IMO without a valid medical reason. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/72 "2015-06-09T05:10:31Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Despite the hysteria around this issue, after controlling for all variables, there is no evidence of any benefit at all to the baby. Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/73 "2015-06-09T05:12:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Obviously a person should be a mentally competent adult to make decisions like this. But there’s no evidence that Caitlyn Jenner is mentally incompetent. Unless you’re suggesting that anyone who is transgendered is by definition mentally incompetent. And if you’re not making that argument stick to the topic and don’t try to divert it to the issue of mental illness. Dont shift the goalposts. You said anyone had the right to define themselves. Obviously you didnt mean what you wrote. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/74 "2015-06-09T05:13:28Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Can’t get the baby to latch. My first was a champ who went for two years. My second was a lazy nurser who refused to latch and wanted a bottle so I pumped and sometimes supplemented with formula. You tried. No one can ask any more from you. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/75 "2015-06-09T06:03:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Dont shift the goalposts. You said anyone had the right to define themselves. Obviously you didnt mean what you wrote. So, because the Declaration of Independence didn’t contain weasel-words about All Men…who are of legal age and competence, not currently incarcerated, who have not signed indenture contracts, and are not enslaved…are created equal, the U.S. is “shifting the goalposts.” Oh, wait. You said “you didnt mean what you wrote.” You made a typographical error, and so, obviously, you didn’t mean what you wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/76 "2015-06-09T06:20:07Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Dont shift the goalposts. You said anyone had the right to define themselves. Obviously you didnt mean what you wrote. No, you’re the one shifting the goalpost by bringing up the mental illness issue. If we were discussing a hypothetical law that forbid driving cars in town from midnight to six am and I posted _“People should have the right to drive their cars whenever they want to”_ I shouldn’t have to say _“unless they’re insane or blind or have no arms or are six months old or are in a coma or just drank a quart of whiskey or are a convicted felon serving time in prison or want to drive their car through an intersection when somebody’s walking across the street.”_ I was addressing the topic that was being discussed not trying to think of every possible side-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/77 "2015-06-09T06:22:12Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Bullshit. You denied your child both desperatly needed antibodies and a sense of bonding that only comes from breastfeeding. If you didnt want to raise your child the right way you shouldnt have had one. A child isnt your property. A child isnt a pet. Its child abuse IMO without a valid medical reason. My breasts aren’t your property either, and it’s not up to you to decide what I do with them or not. If you have a child, then you can decide to breast feed. Don’t tell other women what they should or shouldn’t do with their’s. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/78 "2015-06-09T10:05:42Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Yeah, I don’t understand the part about having a ‘female brain’. Is that the kind that is not good at math, can’t reverse park, and likes pink, or what? By that definition I have a “male brain”. But I feel like a woman. I think stereotypical interests are a _factor_ in all this, but not the only thing. People are complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/79 "2015-06-09T10:21:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Bullshit. You denied your child both desperatly needed antibodies and a sense of bonding that only comes from breastfeeding. If you didnt want to raise your child the right way you shouldnt have had one. A child isnt your property. A child isnt a pet. Its child abuse IMO without a valid medical reason. Good lord - judgmental much? Are you a doctor? If not, you aren’t qualified to define “medical reason” anyhow. Equating bottle-feeding with child abuse is just over the top. Sure, you’re entitled to your opinion. So are the rest of us. MY opinion is that you adhere to an overly extreme position. Sure, breast-feeding provides antibodies… but lots of people have lived long, healthy lives despite never tasting human breast milk. They are a good thing, but not the only thing. And the whole “sense of bonding” thing - really? Next you’ll say adopted kids aren’t loved and wanted as much as biokids. Or something of the sort. Or that dads can’t bond to their kids since they’re unable to breast feed. Get real - feeding another human being no matter how you do it is a bonding experience, that’s why even as adults we feed those we care about by serving a meal or a favorite treat, socialize over meals, and so on. It’s more important that an infant be _adequately_ fed than conform to some ideal that, for whatever reason, can’t be attained in a particular case. Geez, it’s like saying it’s child abuse if you can’t feed your kids all-organic fruits and vegetables and artisan breads and cheeses - that might be healthier, but regular rice and beans, frozen vegees, and a non-organic banana or apple will provide adequate nutrition as well. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/80 "2015-06-09T11:18:34Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Bullshit. You denied your child both desperatly needed antibodies and a sense of bonding that only comes from breastfeeding. If you didnt want to raise your child the right way you shouldnt have had one. A child isnt your property. A child isnt a pet. Its child abuse IMO without a valid medical reason. Whoa. I start a thread, get swamped at work and find someone getting self-righteous about breast-feeding? Whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886.md?page=5)