# NYTimes Op-Ed: Transgender vs. Cisgender view of "Woman" - grabbing popcorn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886 "2015-06-07T13:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![toombs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@toombs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toombs)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/141 "2015-06-11T04:54:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I have to call horseshit on that bit quoted from the NYT. Good freaking God, it’s hard to be more immersed in the trans community than me, and I’ve NEVER once heard anyone even as a joke call a vagina “front hole.” W.T.F.? Actually, the term is somewhat common in the FTM community, and is used entirely by trans men who are some level of dysphoric about their genitals. And it’s always used in the context of sex. (As in, a gay trans man who is cool with PIV sex might use that term to describe his sex life.) Literally no one is pushing for it to be used by cis people outside of the very small subset of penis’d individuals that might be having vaginal intercourse with a trans dude. Anything else _is_ bullshit, and is cis person taking things out of context because they are likely butthurt that a trans person might define their bodies in ways they personally find icky. (see: couple posts in this thread about the topic of "front hole"s) ---
**Author:** ![toombs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@toombs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toombs)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/142 "2015-06-11T05:01:48Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Bullshit. Anyone has a right to an opinion on anything in a free society. Those who would try to silence opinions on issues do so from dark dishonest motives. This is an issue of social construct; not science. Yeah you’re absolutely welcome to your opinion that is informed by zero first hand experience and be disagreeable with people who do have it. Congrats? Also, your posts in this thread would be the perfect ingredients for an anti-trans argument bingo game. Congrats again? ---
**Author:** ![toombs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@toombs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toombs)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/143 "2015-06-11T05:12:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m curious what she expects transgender men to do in order to prove they’re taking their masculinity seriously. Spit a lot? Buy season tickets for the local sports team? Start a fist fight? Bring in the herd to Dodge City? Avenge a dead partner? In my experience as a trans man: nothing. If they accept we exist, they take what we say at face value. Misogyny is not just for cis women! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/144 "2015-06-11T10:17:26Z")
I think quite a few people don’t realize transmen exist. Well, maybe more since Chaz Bono made a public transition (although a lot more low key than Jenner’s). Oh yeah - I remember people saying as how Chaz wasn’t a good looking guy. As if transition treatment was somehow about becoming a hunk/stud/Adonis. How dare he transition into a chubby dude, and THEN he had the stones to parade his less-than-ideal body on _Dancing with the Stars!_ The _nerve_ of some people! There are not enough of these sometimes \>\>\> :rolleyes: BTW - thanks for contributing the FtM viewpoint, we never seem to hear much from your crowd. It seems ya’ll just blend into the scenery (congrats on that, it’s sort of the point, isn’t it?). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/145 "2015-06-11T12:56:59Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Can I ask a question of anyone who cares to answer it? > > Do you feel like you have a male or female brain, or just a human brain?.. Just a human brain. I am a woman. I have female body parts, I’ve birthed a baby, and everyone has always seen me as female. (well, except sometimes strangers over the phone.) But I’m a moderately butch woman, and I’ve never felt a strong gender identity, and I am perfectly happy to identify with male protagonists in stories. My daughter, who is much more traditionally feminine than I, says she does have a female gender identity, and has a strong preference for fiction with female protagonists. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Gender roles and gender identity are not the same thing. Transgender women can be girly-girls or tomboys. “What gender are you?” and “How stereotypically masculine or feminine are you?” are questions that address things on different scales. Then I am confused, as I have been thinking of gender identity as linked to gender roles, and that trans people are people who fit the stereotypes less well than I do, to the point of being uncomfortable identifying as the sex they appear to be. I really have zero concept of a strong internal gender identity that isn’t tied to any social signals or to body parts. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/146 "2015-06-11T12:58:13Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think quite a few people don’t realize transmen exist. > > Well, maybe more since Chaz Bono made a public transition (although a lot more low key than Jenner’s). > > Oh yeah - I remember people saying as how Chaz wasn’t a good looking guy. As if transition treatment was somehow about becoming a hunk/stud/Adonis. How dare he transition into a chubby dude, and THEN he had the stones to parade his less-than-ideal body on _Dancing with the Stars!_ The _nerve_ of some people! > > There are not enough of these sometimes \>\>\> :rolleyes: > > BTW - thanks for contributing the FtM viewpoint, we never seem to hear much from your crowd. It seems ya’ll just blend into the scenery (congrats on that, it’s sort of the point, isn’t it?). I’ve met a few transmen. None is especially attractive. None is ugly, either. I suppose they just blend in. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/147 "2015-06-11T14:29:40Z")
> [@toombs](#): > > Anything else _is_ bullshit, and is cis person taking things out of context because they are likely butthurt that a trans person might define their bodies in ways they personally find icky. (see: couple posts in this thread about the topic of "front hole"s) I don’t think it’s icky. I think it sounds juvenile. I think that a lot of people will think it sounds crude. I guess I’d feel the same if transwomen that didn’t have surgery called their penis a fuckstick. Of course the situation matters though. If you’re saying it is only used in the context of sex that makes more sense to me. The way it was portrayed in the article was a substitute for vagina. That sounds totally absurd to me. If you’re saying it is more of a substitute for the word pussy used in a more sexual context then it doesn’t seem nearly as bad. In that sense, it’s okay to sound crude. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/148 "2015-06-11T17:16:22Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > It’s a hilariously ridiculous term that also seems utterly juvenile and crude. I’m all for the evolution of language, whether for PC-type reasons or just updated slang. As terms change half the time I recognize the value in the new language. A lot of the time though I think it is a little pointless and stupid; I might go along with it, but I can’t help the way I feel. > > No matter what there will always be the language police ready to explode over every perceived insult if people don’t adopt or use the new terms. There’s no doubt that if somehow, someway “front hole” catches on, there will be plenty of righteous indignation when people don’t adopt it early enough. > > It’s like a South Park episode come to life. I hope it catches on because it is so hilariously stupid and yet some people will be so melodramatic over it. Yup. I’m no close-minded “rightie” (well, okay - I CAN be somewhat closed-minded on CERTAIN topics but I definitely do NOT consider myself to be a “rightie” either politically OR socially!) but sometimes I see the P.C. train running a bit amok. That and the fact that we humans (and since I’m one myself I count myself in this) have ways of getting our Irish up over things in a way that OTHER humans just cannot grasp. Happens ALL THE TIME. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886/149 "2015-06-12T20:26:49Z")
There’s the Nobel Idiot who finds Girl Scientists to be distractingly sexy, etc. I get steamed at that - what a clueless idiot - and then look at Caitlyn all sexed-up on the cover of VF and praising her female mind and chipped nail polish. Yes they are different statements and situations happening on different levels, but easy to see how they might appear in conflict. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nytimes-op-ed-transgender-vs-cisgender-view-of-woman-grabbing-popcorn/721886.md?page=7)