NYTimes Op-Ed: Transgender vs. Cisgender view of "Woman" - grabbing popcorn

I have a huge faith in the universality of human thought, and in the skills of really good writers. Enough writers have penned books about “What it’s like” that I feel I do (kind of) know. You’re right, we can’t experience life from anyone else’s point of view, but I think we can “get the message” from reading well-written books.

Part of this is that men and women aren’t greatly different. It isn’t like cats and dogs. Not even like bulldogs and pekingeses. Maybe a little like German Shepherds and Saint Bernards.

As to brain type, while I do think there are some hard-wired differences between the sexes when it comes to cognition, I believe that our upbringing makes a slightly greater difference. If you raised a boy exactly the way girls are raised…and vice-versa…I think there would be some dissonance. But not as much as many may believe. It isn’t guaranteed that Achilles, raised as a girl, would grab for the sword and not the doll.

I thought they’d established that estrogen/testosterone ratios caused structural changes in the developing brain, and variations were considered a contributing factor in gender issues.

Is that just speculative, or was it debunked and I didn’t get the memo?

No cite, but a while back I read an article about little boys who have an obvious preference for stereotypically “girlish” pursuits such as playing with dolls or dressing up in tutus. It mentioned that according to some longitudinal study on the subject, very few of these children ever identify as girls/women. The vast majority identify as boys/men as they grow up, with about a 50/50 split between gay and straight.

Despite the hysteria around this issue, after controlling for all variables, there is no evidence of any benefit at all to the baby.

Yeah, I don’t understand the part about having a ‘female brain’. Is that the kind that is not good at math, can’t reverse park, and likes pink, or what?

I don’t think that Caitlyn Jenner even knows what she means by it. But I think she means that her identity as female is hard-wired into her, not that her brain configuration is 99.7% similar to the established standard for female brains and that she is therefore a woman.

As for the Vanity Fair cover, it’s not like they don’t always present all women that way anyway. She’s a celebrity; that’s the business. She was hot as a guy, and she still has that regularity of features and proportions, plus she’s getting cosmetic surgery, so of course she looks good. It would be kinda perverse to get surgery to make you look bad.

Obviously a person should be a mentally competent adult to make decisions like this. But there’s no evidence that Caitlyn Jenner is mentally incompetent. Unless you’re suggesting that anyone who is transgendered is by definition mentally incompetent. And if you’re not making that argument stick to the topic and don’t try to divert it to the issue of mental illness.

Can’t get the baby to latch. My first was a champ who went for two years. My second was a lazy nurser who refused to latch and wanted a bottle so I pumped and sometimes supplemented with formula.

I’m curious what she expects transgender men to do in order to prove they’re taking their masculinity seriously. Spit a lot? Buy season tickets for the local sports team? Start a fist fight? Bring in the herd to Dodge City? Avenge a dead partner?

I suppose they could watch ‘But I’m a Cheerleader’ for some suggestions. :rolleyes: (not at you)

The “rule of thumb” in this situation is:

  1. Take the gender first - transman - male.
  2. Then apply the sexuality modifier - gay.

So a gay transman is a person who used to live in society as a woman, who most likely was born with XX chromosomes and was transgender, who changed their gender status in society to male, but is still attracted to men.

It’s the analogue of me being a lesbian transwoman.

I have to say LongHornDave, being an engineer in the power industry I’ve liked and respected much of what you’ve had to say on this message board. But I cannot tell if you’re trying to have “fun” with this topic or not. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, but some of your posts seem to be mocking people like me.

I assure you that the vast majority of transgender people do not want to be on a reality show, and do not want to be social justice warriors inventing new and sometimes bizarre phrases and words. When I introduce people who have little to no exposure to the transgender community to my friends, a frequent comment is “but…they’re all so normal.

The vast majority of my people want only to submerge and put this in our past, and move on as happier, healthier, positive and productive people. There are fringes in any group of people, and sometimes those fringes, for one reason or another, suddenly get a lot of undue media attention.

Bullshit. You denied your child both desperatly needed antibodies and a sense of bonding that only comes from breastfeeding. If you didnt want to raise your child the right way you shouldnt have had one. A child isnt your property. A child isnt a pet. Its child abuse IMO without a valid medical reason.

Cite please.

Dont shift the goalposts. You said anyone had the right to define themselves. Obviously you didnt mean what you wrote.

You tried. No one can ask any more from you.

So, because the Declaration of Independence didn’t contain weasel-words about All Men…who are of legal age and competence, not currently incarcerated, who have not signed indenture contracts, and are not enslaved…are created equal, the U.S. is “shifting the goalposts.”

Oh, wait. You said “you didnt mean what you wrote.” You made a typographical error, and so, obviously, you didn’t mean what you wrote.

No, you’re the one shifting the goalpost by bringing up the mental illness issue.

If we were discussing a hypothetical law that forbid driving cars in town from midnight to six am and I posted “People should have the right to drive their cars whenever they want to” I shouldn’t have to say “unless they’re insane or blind or have no arms or are six months old or are in a coma or just drank a quart of whiskey or are a convicted felon serving time in prison or want to drive their car through an intersection when somebody’s walking across the street.” I was addressing the topic that was being discussed not trying to think of every possible side-topic.

My breasts aren’t your property either, and it’s not up to you to decide what I do with them or not. If you have a child, then you can decide to breast feed. Don’t tell other women what they should or shouldn’t do with their’s.

By that definition I have a “male brain”. But I feel like a woman.

I think stereotypical interests are a factor in all this, but not the only thing. People are complicated.

Good lord - judgmental much?

Are you a doctor? If not, you aren’t qualified to define “medical reason” anyhow.

Equating bottle-feeding with child abuse is just over the top.

Sure, you’re entitled to your opinion. So are the rest of us. MY opinion is that you adhere to an overly extreme position.

Sure, breast-feeding provides antibodies… but lots of people have lived long, healthy lives despite never tasting human breast milk. They are a good thing, but not the only thing.

And the whole “sense of bonding” thing - really? Next you’ll say adopted kids aren’t loved and wanted as much as biokids. Or something of the sort. Or that dads can’t bond to their kids since they’re unable to breast feed. Get real - feeding another human being no matter how you do it is a bonding experience, that’s why even as adults we feed those we care about by serving a meal or a favorite treat, socialize over meals, and so on.

It’s more important that an infant be adequately fed than conform to some ideal that, for whatever reason, can’t be attained in a particular case. Geez, it’s like saying it’s child abuse if you can’t feed your kids all-organic fruits and vegetables and artisan breads and cheeses - that might be healthier, but regular rice and beans, frozen vegees, and a non-organic banana or apple will provide adequate nutrition as well.

Whoa. I start a thread, get swamped at work and find someone getting self-righteous about breast-feeding? Whatever.