# O.J. innocent or guilty and what's your race & gender? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 2, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310 "2010-07-02T14:43:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/81 "2010-07-06T18:45:30Z")
The thing is though, the evidence was suspect. The LA police (and perhaps the DA’s office) were so clearly putting on false or improperly handled evidence that the jury didn’t know what to believe. This is why it’s so important for the prosecution to be beyond reproach: if you can’t believe all the evidence, you can’t necessarily believe any of the evidence because you have no way of knowing which is genuine and which has been manufactured. And **RNATB** , perhaps that’s because we’re less likely to jump to conclusions. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/82 "2010-07-06T18:46:20Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > Us white guys just sat and shook our heads. I’ve never been so disappointed in a group of people in my life. Me neither! Don’t ya’ll white guys know when it’s party time? Shame on ya’ll for not throwing your hands in the air and wavin’ 'em like you just don’t care! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/83 "2010-07-06T20:58:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The thing is though, the evidence was suspect. The LA police (and perhaps the DA’s office) were so clearly putting on false or improperly handled evidence that the jury didn’t know what to believe. … > [@](#): > > … In court, LAPD criminalist Andrea Mazzola, 34, took the stand and described her role collecting evidence at the Rockingham crime scene and at O.J. Simpson’s house. Prosecutor Hank Goldberg asked about her credentials in response to attacks from defense lawyers that she lacked the experience to collect sensitive DNA evidence. > > Though Mazzola is referred to as a trainee, she worked for 18 months at the Kern County District Attorney’s office as a criminalist in toxicology. She has additional experience working at a private lab and studied criminology in college, according to her testimony. > > Goldberg attempted to prove that Dennis Fung, Mazzola’s supervisor, received a vial of Simpson’s blood on June 13 at Simpson’s house. During cross-examination of Fung, defense lawyer Barry Scheck had shown a videotape in which Fung’s hands were empty as he was leaving the house that day. Fung then said the blood was in a garbage bag that Mazzola was carrying. > > To rehabilitate Fung’s testimony, Goldberg showed Mazzola the videotape of her walking with Fung and carrying a trash bag. Although she could not definitively say she remembered carrying the blood vial in the bag, she ruled out any other explanation. > > In cross-examination, defense lawyer Peter Neufeld accused Mazzola of altering crime scene reports to make it look as though Fung had collected key evidence. Neufeld attempted to belittle Mazzola’s education and experience. He pointed out that she was still on employment probation June 13, when she reported to the crime scene. … > > … Mazzola spent the day under cross-examination, testifying about her role in the collection of blood samples from the Bundy and Rockingham crime scenes. Neufeld also questioned her about Dennis Fung’s role in collecting the crucial physical evidence. > > Mazzola said she collected most of the blood from both crime scenes, some of the time without Fung supervising her – a much different story than the one Fung told the grand jury in July. At the time, he said that he collected most of the blood stains. Mazzola supported Fung’s testimony that the two worked as a team. > > Neufeld tried to portray Mazzola as incompetent, using a videotape produced by prosecutors. The tape showed that while demonstrating the collection of evidence, Mazzola rested her hand on dirty pavement; wiped a tweezers with the dirty hand; rested her knees on the dirty pavement; brushed her gloved hand on the dirty knee; and dropped several swabs. > > In another effort to portray her as inept, Neufeld questioned Mazzola on several points including her use of one cotton swab to test for blood on three different areas of Simpson’s Ford Bronco. Mazzola admitted she had been trained to use separate swabs for different areas but that Fung told her to use one swab on all three areas. > > Mazzola conceded that mistakes could happen when collecting vital evidence from the scene of a crime. She also admitted that inadvertent mistakes could be made by crime investigators at the scene which might not be noticed at the time they were made. > > “So you really can’t say … that you have never made any mistake at the few crime scenes that you have participated in, can you?” Neufeld asked. > > “That’s true,” Mazzola replied. > > The defense is trying to show that vital blood evidence could have been contaminated by the collection procedures employed by Mazzola and Fung. > > But Mazzola denied that anyone in the police crime lab would alter evidence. The defense has suggested that police tried to frame Simpson in the murders of his former wife and Ronald Goldman. … > > …The defense continued to try and portray Mazzola as an inexperienced and incompetent investigator and focused on the vial of blood taken from Simpson on the day after the murders. > > Mazzola acknowledged she never saw the vial of blood at Simpson’s home. Nor, she said, did she even know that she was carrying it out of Simpson’s house in a plastic bag, as criminalist Dennis Fung previously testified she had done. > > Neufeld implied it was too convenient for Mazzola to claim she rested her eyes about the time a detective supposedly handed the vial of blood to Fung. > > “Miss Mazzola,” Neufeld asked, “did you invent this notion that your eyes were closed so that Mr. Fung could testify that he received the vial without you seeing it?” > > Ito sustained an objection and Mazzola didn’t have to answer. > > Neufeld also elicited testimony from Mazzola that she didn’t have an “independent recollection” of picking up a glove and ski cap at the murder scene, actions that were captured on videotape and played in court. > > “Yet, you have an independent recollection that while you were sitting on a couch you closed your eyes? You had that recollection ten months later?” Neufeld asked. > > “Yes,” Mazzola replied. > > Fung and Detective Philip Vannatter have testified that Vannatter delivered the vial to Fung on June 13. Simpson willingly provided a sample of his blood at police headquarters, and Vannatter said he drove it across town to Simpson’s estate, where Fung and Mazzola were collecting evidence. … > > … Fung testified that Detective Philip Vannatter gave him a blood sample taken from Simpson at police headquarters earlier on June 13. Fung said he received the blood from Vannatter in the foyer of Simpson’s home. The vial was in a grey envelope, and he opened it in the foyer to examine it. > > When Scheck asked whether this was normal procedure for booking evidence, Fung said, “I can’t remember one instance where that (evidence was transported to him instead of being booked at the Evidence Control Unit) happened.” … > > … The defense contends the blood wasn’t handed over to Fung that day and the delay gave police an opportunity to plant it. > > Prosecutor Hank Goldberg then began his re-direct by directing asking Mazzola whether she was involved in a conspiracy to frame Simpson for murder. > > Not only was she not part of a police conspiracy, Mazzola testified, she didn’t even know who Simpson was when she and Fung arrived at his home to start collecting evidence. > > "Mr. Fung kept saying, 'O.J.‘s house’ … and I said, ‘O.J. who?’ " Mazzola said. “He said, 'movies, sports … ’ It just did not ring a bell.” … > > … Some of the most interesting testimony came when defense attorney Peter Neufeld tried to show that Mazzola could have been involved in a cover-up for Fung. > > Neufeld began the line of questioning by reminding Mazzola that she testified during a pretrial hearing on August 23, 1994 that she had initialed all the coin envelopes and bindles used to preserve blood samples taken from the crime scenes. Neufeld then asked Mazzola to sift through all the bindles and envelopes taken from Simpson’s Rockingham estate. He asked her to indicate which ones had her initials. She had to admit that none of them did. > > Neufeld then asked when Mazzola found out that her initials were not on the envelopes and bindles. She responded that she noticed it when she just happened to walk past the serology lab and saw the evidence lying on a table. Neufeld questioned whether this was possible since the serology room is quite large, with a long table and criminalists working on several cases at a time. Besides, he pointed out, how could Mazzola just happen to see the envelope and bindles with particular writing on them. And he suggested that Mazzola found out some other way, adding that Mazzola had told the truth at the August pretrial hearing but that Fung - as part of the conspiracy - could have changed the originals and that the envelopes and bindles unsealed in court were not the originals. > > “Did you realize that if the prosecutors could not produce the original bindles, that that would be devastating,” Neufeld asked. But Mazzola did not have to answer the question because Judge Lance Ito sustained a prosecution objection that the question was improper. … The above from [del]CourtTV[/del] truTV’s site, a current link for I’m not in the mood to look for, but the whole thing (including the complete trial transcript, CNN had that) is/was available online. I’d like to renew my objection to threads on this subject neglecting to ask what amount of the actual trial proceedings the respondents watched. My opinion of the case is based on watching it. This was in the glory days of CourtTV when they actually covered trial literally from “gavel to gavel” if you missed it live you could watch the rebroadcast repeated over-night, between that and a VCR I saw ~95% of the trial. Based on the above testimony, Mazzola and/or Fung perjuring themselves and the lack of a clear chain of custody for crucial evidence … I still can’t vote in this poll. I don’t know if he’s innocent or guilty, I do know that the case presented by the prosecution fell apart under its own weight. **OJ Simpson: Innocent or Guilty of Murder?** White male, not proven (a verdict we really need to add to our system). CMC fnord! One of the biggest problems with this case is its being a perfect example of the “[CSI effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect)”. If we did a poll about the trace evidence found in the watch cap I’m certain a majority would vote _O.J.'s hair_ when the absolute most that would be testified to by a forensic expert at trial would be _a hair consistent with the accused’s_. Which means it could have been; O.J.‘s, Al Cowlings’, Jason Simpson’s or anyone else with hair of similar texture and length. It also would not rule out the possibility that the hair was not the killer’s at all! If you go to your local Goodwill and buy a knitted watch cap I can (almost) guarantee that no matter how well washed it is, it will have at least one of the previous [del]owner’s[/del] wearer’s hairs in it. And if you try it on there’s a good chance that it will now also have one or more strands of your hair in it. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/84 "2010-07-06T22:58:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > He was guilty as hell, […]but if I’d been on the jury, I probably would have HAD to vote “not guilty,” because you can’t convict based on utterly tainted evidence. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/85 "2010-07-07T04:34:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I also have no doubt that a lot of black Americans were pro-defense during the case not because they really thought OJ was innocent, but out of a desire for payback for all the times the system had let white guys walk for doing things to black people, or that they at least were going to be extremely hardcore about the level of proof and extremely reluctant to want to convict without it. > > I also remember a tendancy towards an extreme self-righteousness about the case from a lot of white people at the time which borderd on racist hostility and obnoxiousness. There was an unwillingness to admit that the cops could possibly do anything wrong, tamper with evidence, lie on the stand or harbor racist feelings, for instance. I could understand why some people would want to push back against that, and not just let their opinions about (and personal experiences with) the cops, the justice system, etc. be steamrolled aside like that. Black dude here, and I just got the bat signal to report to this thread. I also am 99% sure he did it, or at least was involved enough to need his ass to be locked up for something. But y’all are forgetting something: Johnny Cochran. I was in college during this time and definitely immersed in my racial identity politics at the time. And **Dio** is right; lots of white people had this belief that LAPD were as pure as the driven snow and even if Fuhrmann was a racist, OJ still did it. White folks get off on technicalities all the time. It was amazing, and indeed a testament to JC’s court skills that a Black guy got the same outcome. No matter how you felt about the verdict I think 90% of the black folks out there think of OJ as a trifling ass Negro. He beat his wife, was generally a arrogant jerk, and was happy to be this raceless, golf playing douche bag until his ass caught a case. Then he was a “brother.” As sorry as his ass is, Cochran on his side and Daryl Gates on the other made it easy to root for Team Simpson. And yes I know the Browns and Goldmans suffered an incredible loss. But to me this is kind of a chickens coming to roost moment. It seemed only poor people of color distrusted and questioned the LAPD before this happened. Now even rich folks got to see how the cops fuck people over every day, and they got called out on it. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/86 "2010-07-07T05:09:11Z")
White male, absolutely convinced of his guilt. Also thought that Marcia Clark was one of the worst prosecutors of all time. Making OJ put rubber gloves on before putting the other gloves was one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen an attorney do. Leather gloves shrink when saturated with liquid (in this case blood). Rubber gloves create friction that makes sliding gloves on top of them difficult if not impossible. Maybe they should have tried that glove trick before doing it in court in front of a jury just DYING to find something to hang their hat on for reasonable doubt. If it doesn’t fit, you must acquit. Indeed! Johnny C. hit a home run with that one. Clark and Darden. Bozos. Screwed up the slam dunk DNA case of the century. But, OJ is where he belongs now, and he’ll probably die in prison. One personal note: As much as I could sympathize with the Brown and Goldman family, Mr. Goldman was an annoying douchbag and Nicole’s sister was a piece of work herself. They should have stayed out of the courtroom unless they were on the stand. ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/87 "2010-07-07T15:18:13Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Me neither! Don’t ya’ll white guys know when it’s party time? Shame on ya’ll for not throwing your hands in the air and wavin’ 'em like you just don’t care! Knock it off, Larry - you’re diffusing my social commentary on racial animosity! Or is it de-fusing? ---
**Author:** ![Yarster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7c8e57/32.png) [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/88 "2010-07-08T01:23:19Z")
I’ve always been under the belief that O.J. was covering up for his son Jason who committed the crime with some of his buddies, in response to the threat of being cut off from his money. It seems unlikely whoever committed the murder did so alone, and that if O.J. did it, that he didn’t seem overly anxious or scared when he was on the plane immediately after the murder to the point that other passengers would have noticed. It could also be that O.J. paid someone to do it, but I really don’t believe he was the murderer; only that he knows who did and/or is responsible for it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/89 "2010-07-08T03:04:59Z")
For what it’s worth I’ve sometimes wondered the same thing too. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/90 "2010-07-08T13:35:11Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > One personal note: As much as I could sympathize with the Brown and Goldman family, Mr. Goldman was an annoying douchbag and Nicole’s sister was a piece of work herself. They should have stayed out of the courtroom unless they were on the stand. Cite? How much personal interction have you had with either of these people? Even IF OJ didn’t do it (snicker), his trashing of the Goldmans and Browns is disgusting. I’ve heard men defend OJ by saying “Nicole got what she deserved for cheating on him.”:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/91 "2010-07-08T14:17:18Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’ve heard men defend OJ by saying “Nicole got what she deserved for cheating on him.”:eek: In the thread I linked to, you said this; [QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] I have actually heard people say that Nicole Brown Simpson got what she had coming to her for “being a slut.” Several times, includng people I work with. [/QUOTE] I am beginning to wonder if people just say these outrageous things around you to pull your leg. Perhaps they know this OJ thing really bugs you and they are just messing with you? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310/92 "2010-07-08T14:19:26Z")
I’ve heard men on the street who don’t known me from Eve say this. It always surprises and sickens me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/o-j-innocent-or-guilty-and-whats-your-race-gender/545310.md?page=4)