# Oathkeepers.org for US military/police/etc **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707 "2009-10-30T09:00:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/61 "2009-10-31T00:36:59Z")
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: You can use that stupid smiley all day, it doesn’t change the fact that [it happened.](http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/08/05/wrongful-gun-confiscation-after-hurricane-katrina-video-clip/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/62 "2009-10-31T01:21:44Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > You can use that stupid smiley all day, it doesn’t change the fact that [it happened.](http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/08/05/wrongful-gun-confiscation-after-hurricane-katrina-video-clip/) :dubious: No doubt. The :rolleyes: was for “the time when people needed them most.” **As you should have known.** ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/63 "2009-10-31T02:06:37Z")
You mean they don’t double as flotation devices? ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/64 "2009-10-31T03:16:31Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > I think they allow states to succeed from the federation though… rather than there being a civil war… > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who’s “they”? See the details for 5: [http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/](http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/) > [@](#): > > …upwards of 20 states are considering, have considered, or have passed courageous resolutions affirming states rights and sovereignty. > > … > > Chief among those principles is that ours is a dual sovereignty system, with the people of each state retaining all powers not granted to the national government they created, and thus the people of each state reserved to themselves the right to judge when the national government they created has voided the compact between the states by asserting powers never granted. > > Upon the declaration by a state that such a breach has occurred, **we** will not obey orders to force that state to submit to the national government. We = they… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/65 "2009-10-31T03:20:36Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > See the details for 5: > [http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/](http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/) > We = they… We != they. The United States Constitution does **not** allow states to secede from the Union. That was settled once and for all in 1865. And state resolutions purporting to interpret the Constitution are legally meaningless. [Nullification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_(U.S._Constitution)) is a dog that wouldn’t hunt before the Civil War and has been rotting in the pet cemetery ever since. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/66 "2009-10-31T03:20:44Z")
It’s fairly well-established that [secession is illegal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White), so refusing to follow an order to occupy a state or otherwise prevent its secession would constitute failure to obey a lawful order. ETA: What, exactly, is courageous about passing a resolution? State X could pass a resolution pledging to honor and obey Bart Simpson as the lawfully elected President of the United States and the only place you’d read about it is DailyKos. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/67 "2009-10-31T05:39:54Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > You can use that stupid smiley all day, it doesn’t change the fact that [it happened.](http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/08/05/wrongful-gun-confiscation-after-hurricane-katrina-video-clip/) You couldn’t link to a news article on a non-gun site? Or a video that doesn’t claim to tell “The Untold Story.” Those rolleyes were deserved. Who’s pressing charges and what’s the judge say? Until then you’ve got nothing. And once again, if you feel you’ve been wronged you can take it all the way to the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/68 "2009-10-31T08:57:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by\*\* Teh Oathkeepers\*\* > 8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control." Dang. It sure worked out pretty well when the French helped our nearly-defeated asses during the American Revolution. (Although that might have been mostly naval assistance, and may have been only negligibly directed against American citizens (Crown loyalists). I admit I don’t know for sure). ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/69 "2009-10-31T09:06:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There probably is a contingent which just thinks the oath sounds sensible, but most of them are your regular crazies- worried that the New World Order is coming to soften their brains by putting flouride in the water Wait… this is indeed serious. Do you know this for a fact? Is the NWO seriously putting fluoride in my drinking water? Shit. Does this mean I should stop brushing my teeth? What do the Oathkeepers say about flossing? What about those cherry-flavored fluoride treatments always pushed on me by my UN dentist? What about cherries? WHAT ABOUT CHER??? This changes everything! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/70 "2009-10-31T09:11:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Maybe I’m just being uncharitable, but I can’t help wondering exactly how they define “American citizen.” Un-hyphenated. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/71 "2009-10-31T12:12:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Maybe I’m just being uncharitable, but I can’t help wondering exactly how they define “American citizen.” My guess is white Christian Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/72 "2009-10-31T21:54:35Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Un-hyphenated. What, like an unhyphenated Anglo-Saxon? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/73 "2009-10-31T22:18:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Ours is a nation of constitutional law, and the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what the Constitution actually says. I think they got it wrong in Heller, and I note that one of the majority votes was from a justice who thought separate but equal schools were just peachy. Which Justice from the Heller majority thinks separate but equal schools were just peachy? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/74 "2009-10-31T22:55:38Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > Which Justice from the Heller majority thinks separate but equal schools were just peachy? There was a news article from the Phoenix East Valley Tribune that falsely stated that Scalia said he he would have dissented from Brown vs. Board of Ed. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/75 "2009-10-31T23:14:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, like an unhyphenated Anglo-Saxon? Well, you got me there. I guess the same would go for Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Irish-Americans and any other group that has assimilated into the White Christian America enough to satisfy an Oathkeeper. They would think of any of those groups to be “Americans” first, and “x-Americans” second. So long as they don’t get uppity. OTOH, African-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Arab-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc… THOSE where the hyphenated groups I was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/76 "2009-11-01T01:40:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You mean they don’t double as flotation devices? A rifle butt is roughly oar-shaped. What else are you going to row your flotsam with? The corpse of your drowned loved one? ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/77 "2009-11-01T04:02:18Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > If oath keepers used pitchforks the other police and military would just overpower them with guns/teargas/etc… being an oathkeeper means that if in the future other people were using pitchforks, they mightn’t necessarily arrest them all and send them away… I’m assuming you think a revolution is a good thing. I’m not saying that. I’m just saying that if these assholes really cared about the president trampling all over the constitution they should have gotten pissed at Bush. Yet I didn’t see any tea parties during the Bush years. I didn’t see any of these clowns calling him a socialist when he proposed the bailouts. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/78 "2009-11-01T05:20:38Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Well, you got me there. I guess the same would go for Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Irish-Americans and any other group that has assimilated into the White Christian America enough to satisfy an Oathkeeper. They would think of any of those groups to be “Americans” first, and “x-Americans” second. So long as they don’t get uppity. > > OTOH, African-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Arab-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc… THOSE where the hyphenated groups I was referring to. You ought to be ashamed of yourself dragging race into this. I mean, what the fuck? If you want to oppose the oath keepers, fine. Go ahead. But enough with the trying to paint anyone you don’t like as a ZOMGBADEVILRACIST!!!11 Ascribing some kind of racist motivation to these people is the worst sort of rhetorical chicanery. It goes beyond a strawman argument. It’s like asking “have you stopped beating your wife?” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/79 "2009-11-01T05:37:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The United States Constitution does **not** allow states to secede from the Union. That was settled once and for all in 1865. And state resolutions purporting to interpret the Constitution are legally meaningless. [Nullification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_(U.S._Constitution)) is a dog that wouldn’t hunt before the Civil War and has been rotting in the pet cemetery ever since. And that is the hughest problem I see with the Oathkeepers principle: what is or is not an unlawful order on an unconstitutional statute is the call of the constitutionally established _ **courts** _. \*\* NOT \*\* you, Corporal Jabroni, not Joe Blow who wrote a would-be latter-day _“Common Sense”_ and most certainly NOT _private_ associations of servicemen or law officers (are politically-oriented associations of active-duty servicemen even _allowed to exist?_). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/80 "2009-11-01T05:51:00Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You ought to be ashamed of yourself dragging race into this. I mean, what the fuck? If you want to oppose the oath keepers, fine. Go ahead. But enough with the trying to paint anyone you don’t like as a ZOMGBADEVILRACIST!!!11 Ascribing some kind of racist motivation to these people is the worst sort of rhetorical chicanery. It goes beyond a strawman argument. It’s like asking “have you stopped beating your wife?” Did you read the SPLC piece about the Oath Keepers? They’re led by most of the same people who formed the backbone of the Christian Patriot movement. If you don’t know who they are, I’ll save you the trouble of looking them up - they’re white separatists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707.md?page=5)