# Oathkeepers.org for US military/police/etc **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707 "2009-10-30T09:00:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/81 "2009-11-01T07:28:52Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You ought to be ashamed of yourself dragging race into this. I mean, what the fuck? If you want to oppose the oath keepers, fine. Go ahead. But enough with the trying to paint anyone you don’t like as a ZOMGBADEVILRACIST!!!11 Ascribing some kind of racist motivation to these people is the worst sort of rhetorical chicanery. It goes beyond a strawman argument. It’s like asking “have you stopped beating your wife?” :dubious: This is a whoosh, **right?** ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/82 "2009-11-01T07:36:47Z")
Fuck no it isn’t. I see absolutely no evidence of racism on the Oathkeepers website. I do, though, see a Master Sergeant named Gomez on their Board of Directors. Now, unless he’s a blue-eyed, blond descendant of Northern Spanish nobility who is against all of the bean-eating brown people in the Southwestern U.S., I don’t think that a racist organization would have a Gomez on their Board of Directors. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/83 "2009-11-01T07:58:55Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Fuck no it isn’t. I see absolutely no evidence of racism on the Oathkeepers website. Then you are a liar. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/84 "2009-11-01T08:29:25Z")
Really Not All That Bright: > **[White supremacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_separatism)** > > White supremacy is the belief that white people are superior to those of other races. The belief favors the maintenance and defense of any power and privilege held by white people. White supremacy has roots in the now-discredited doctrine of scientific racism and was a key justification for European colonialism. > As a political ideology, it imposes and maintains cultural, social, political, historical or institutional domination by white people and non-white supporters. In the past, this ideol... > [@](#): > > White separatism is a separatist political movement that seeks separate economic and cultural development for white people Compare that to: [http://oathkeepers.org/oath/about/](http://oathkeepers.org/oath/about/) > [@](#): > > We are Not advocating or promoting the overthrow of any government whether local, state or national. We want our governments to return to the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution defined and instituted. > > We are Not advocating or promoting any act or acts of aggression against any organization or person for any reason including, but not limited to; race, religion, national origin, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation. > > We hope for a return to a Constitutional Republic free from fear and hatred. We hate **only** tyranny. If they’re trying to recruit like minded people they could have not included those parts… I thought white separatists would want government to be different in other ways. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/85 "2009-11-01T08:36:36Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Fuck no it isn’t. I see absolutely no evidence of racism on the Oathkeepers website. [/quote] > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then you are a liar. How can you know what Argent Towers saw? I can’t see evidence on the website either. I didn’t look at every word on the website though. Perhaps you could point to where the racism is. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/86 "2009-11-01T08:46:29Z")
BTW, look at the “supporters of Oath Keepers” flash animation in the right column, [http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/](http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/) There is JPFO: [http://www.jpfo.org/](http://www.jpfo.org/) “JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP - America’s Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership” Also, on the JPFO site it says: > [@](#): > > "No Guns for Negroes " FREE DOWNLOAD/VIEW > This film exposes the racist history of American gun control laws. Every person who supports gun control laws must be shown this film or gun ownership will cease to exist in America. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/87 "2009-11-01T08:59:19Z")
BTW, about the comments on the orders we will not obey: [http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/](http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/) > [@](#): > > Comments posted belong to the commenter alone, and are **not endorsed** by Oath Keepers or the administrators for this site. Due to time constraints, we dont moderate or pre-approve comments and cannot read each and every comment, but we will remove offensive, racist, or threatening comments when we become aware of them. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/88 "2009-11-01T09:07:48Z")
A _liar?_ I’m just pointing out what I saw on the website, which was NO evidence of racism whatsoever. I already made the points that I feel prove it; the man on the Board of Directors named Gomez, for one, plus the things that **JohnClay** brought up (the Jewish group.) There’s my evidence and I think it’s pretty solid. A racist group is not going to allow Mexicans or Jews to have any part in their movement. You can call me a liar till the Cubs win the World Series; but I think the points I’ve made speak for themselves. If you’d like to debate them in a civilized way - addressing the evidence with counter-arguments that actually have proof behind them instead of hyperbole and emotion - without resorting to calling me a liar, then do so. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/89 "2009-11-01T13:48:18Z")
wouldn’t a call to a return to the “Good Ol’ Days” of the Constitutional Republic (a meme I’ve seen thrown about the last few monthson FB) mean a return to second class citizenship for non-white citizens? Wasn’t that part of the deal? And I am willing to bet that the uniform patches shown above are not actually on an active duty service members uniform. Also, how come nobody seems to be addressing the question of where these guys were when Bush was doing the exact same things they question? i’m confused… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/90 "2009-11-01T14:24:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Did you read the SPLC piece about the Oath Keepers? They’re led by most of the same people who formed the backbone of the Christian Patriot movement. > > If you don’t know who they are, I’ll save you the trouble of looking them up - they’re white separatists. The Patriot movement isn’t particularly white separatist. There’s certainly some overlap, and some of the rhetoric they use is similar, but they’re not the same people. Even the SPLC, talking about them, says: > [@](#): > > A key difference this time is that the federal government — the entity that almost the entire radical right views as its primary enemy — is headed by a black man. That, coupled with high levels of non-white immigration and a decline in the percentage of whites overall in America, has helped to racialize the Patriot movement, which in the past was not primarily motivated by race hate. which accuses the modern Patriot movement of being racialized, but says that before Obama, it wasn’t primarily motivated by race hate. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/91 "2009-11-01T15:48:13Z")
Great. Now we’ve completely deviated from how they living in a fantasyland of “defending constitutionalism” in which the “oathkeeper” disregards that part of the oath is to obey the constitutionally-elected civilian government (and deliberately ignores that the issue of constitutionality of seccession, nullification etc. have long been settled in favor of the Feds), and instead drifted into a _“Did! Did Not! Did, Too”_ argument and citefest to prove whether anyone’s seeing racism in it. Because, of course, whether it’s “racist” v. “not racist” trumps everything… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/92 "2009-11-01T17:40:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The Patriot movement isn’t particularly white separatist. There’s certainly some overlap, and some of the rhetoric they use is similar, but they’re not the same people. They’re not white _supremacists_. They are/were certainly white separatists. The Patriot movement is very closely tied to the Christian Identity movement. See [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/93 "2009-11-01T18:34:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then you are a liar. This is Great Debates and there is an explicit rule prohibiting calling other posters liars. This is a Warning to refrain from doing this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/94 "2009-11-01T18:58:03Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > “JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP - America’s Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership” Jews for the Preservation of Firearms are a bunch of weirdos and crazies and is not actually a Jewish group, despite the name. Members include [Larry Pratt](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=365) and [Jack McLamb](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=364). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/95 "2009-11-01T21:59:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Jews for the Preservation of Firearms are a bunch of weirdos and crazies and is not actually a Jewish group, despite the name. Members include [Larry Pratt](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=365) and [Jack McLamb](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=364). I don’t believe either are actual members, although Jack McLamb was made an honorary member. And while the group is a bunch of weirdos and crazies, they are largely Jewish weirdos and crazies (even though non Jews can join). Its founder, Aaron Zelman, is Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/96 "2009-11-01T22:12:11Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > And I am willing to bet that the uniform patches shown above are not actually on an active duty service members uniform. I have read they’re attached with velcro. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/97 "2009-11-01T22:34:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You ought to be ashamed of yourself dragging race into this. I mean, what the fuck? If you want to oppose the oath keepers, fine. Go ahead. But enough with the trying to paint anyone you don’t like as a ZOMGBADEVILRACIST!!!11 Ascribing some kind of racist motivation to these people is the worst sort of rhetorical chicanery. It goes beyond a strawman argument. It’s like asking “have you stopped beating your wife?” I was just clarifying the intention behind my earlier comment (mostly facetious) about who the Oathkeepers (and their ilk) consider “American”. I said they only consider “un-hyphenated” Americans to be “American”. It was a joke. Maybe not funny, maybe not even very well thought out (as I realized from Brain Glutton’s response: “You mean like Anglo-Saxons?”), but just a snarky comment that I based on the clueless and offensive views many “Super-Patriots’” (e.g. the Oathkeepers, the Birthers, Sarah Palin, etc.) seem to have about exactly which Americans are “Real Americans”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/98 "2009-11-01T23:10:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is Great Debates and there is an explicit rule prohibiting calling other posters liars. > This is a Warning to refrain from doing this again. > > [/Moderating] Sorry. I was going back and forth between this board and another (with no rules to speak of). Must have got confused. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/99 "2009-11-01T23:14:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t believe either are actual members, although Jack McLamb was made an honorary member. And while the group is a bunch of weirdos and crazies, they are largely Jewish weirdos and crazies (even though non Jews can join). Its founder, Aaron Zelman, is Jewish. I rather suspect the “Patriot” movement is somewhat conflicted about Jews. Some are antisemites, and also consistent isolationist paleocons who don’t want the U.S. supporting Israel, nor any other foreign country; others believe in the “War on Terror” and foursquare support for Israel as part of that; and some are probably Christian Zionists. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707/100 "2009-11-02T00:09:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t believe either are actual members, although Jack McLamb was made an honorary member. And while the group is a bunch of weirdos and crazies, they are largely Jewish weirdos and crazies (even though non Jews can join). Its founder, Aaron Zelman, is Jewish. About their “No Guns For Negroes” video… (which can be seen online) “JPFO is proud to announce its latest Movie Made possible by our members and supporters” It is made by JPFO yet the video basically just features African-American people… It’s an interesting 20 minute video which supports the idea of law-abiding African Americans owning guns… and how the government tries to disarm them… [http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/ngn-download-view.htm](http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/ngn-download-view.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oathkeepers-org-for-us-military-police-etc/515707.md?page=6)