# Obama aide confirms he will end "Don't ask, don't tell" in military **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331 "2009-01-14T21:39:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/61 "2009-01-16T21:53:19Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > The bigotry may have diminished very slightly, but I think not by much. The military tends to be a very conservative institution and does not change as quickly as other segments of society. Plus many soldiers come from a lower-class socioeconomic background which is home to some of the most scorching anti-gay bigotry you will ever find. > Law isn’t magic. There are always outliers who think the rules don’t apply to them. There will be assaults and there will be both command and peer harassment. The overt discrimination will be punished; a lot of the subtle stuff will be overlooked. People may get booted out of the service over it, but that doesn’t mean they won’t raise hell first. The key is to get to the boot and early training command cadre. In the Navy, after you have been in a while becomes less of a big deal. But the majority of recruits entering boot camp are 18 and away from their home for the first time. And, as you say, many come from backgrounds where there is less exposure to homosexuals and less tolerance. If the training cadres push this hard, and their is a serious effort by the brass to come down hard on incidents throughout the military, then the transition will at least shorter, if not easier. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/62 "2009-01-16T23:03:56Z")
Somewhat off-topic, but what are the ‘busywork’ and ‘sham jobs’ referred to in this thread? To my understanding, these terms indicate work that is not necessary, or completely useless. Why does the government waste money and other resources on such jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/63 "2009-01-16T23:29:19Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Somewhat off-topic, but what are the ‘busywork’ and ‘sham jobs’ referred to in this thread? To my understanding, these terms indicate work that is not necessary, or completely useless. Why does the government waste money and other resources on such jobs? I don’t know about the Army, Marines, or Airforce. In the Navy, if you can’t meet the physical (or academic, security, etc.) requirements of a job, you get assigned a new job. These aren’t busy work, just maybe less prestige, like cook, or building maintenance. If you can’t meet the requirements to be in the service at all, then they process you out. That can take a while (I have seen people stuck in boot camp for over a year). During that period you may be assigned busy work, but that is just to keep you busy while the service slowly gets things down. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/64 "2009-01-16T23:46:27Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Somewhat off-topic, but what are the ‘busywork’ and ‘sham jobs’ referred to in this thread? To my understanding, these terms indicate work that is not necessary, or completely useless. Why does the government waste money and other resources on such jobs? The military is a huge organization, and there’s always work that needs doing that is more or less unskilled. There’s always someone who needs a receptionist to answer phones, file paperwork, etc. If you’re physically healthy, there are always lawns to be mowed, furniture to be moved etc. The military is great at finding work for you to do if you can’t do your “real” job for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/65 "2009-01-17T16:51:44Z")
Could some of you, especially those of you who have not been in the military define what your idea of openly gay means? I fear that some of you picture it being ok for two gay people to hold hands while in uniform or to kiss while in uniform. This is not even allowed for heterosexuals in uniform. I’m just curious. This isn’t the civilian world folks. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/66 "2009-01-17T17:03:10Z")
No, PDAs are not okay in the military. Being openly gay in the military would just mean you could mention you and your boyfriend are going to the movies Friday night, without fear of being thrown out of the military. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/67 "2009-01-17T17:08:17Z")
But the fact is that most gay people in the military are going to stay on the down-low for quite some time, even if they wouldn’t be kicked out for being gay. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/68 "2009-01-17T17:36:25Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But the fact is that most gay people in the military are going to stay on the down-low for quite some time, even if they wouldn’t be kicked out for being gay. Just like in the civilian world. I know lots of gays who aren’t out at work, or not very out. Some people prefer to keep their private lives private. I’d be really surprised if there was a mass of soldiers jumping out of the closet and saying “boo!” Gradually, people will realize there are more gays & lesbians than they thought. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/69 "2009-01-17T17:37:53Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Why? WWII was necessary and for the greater good of all Americans and the world, there weren’t enough volunteers then either. Isn’t “involuntary servitude” unconstitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/70 "2009-01-17T17:50:06Z")
The supreme court has ruled many times that conscription is not involuntary servitude. So unless you plan on appointing some new justices to the supreme court that will give a different opinion, a draft is constitutional. It still doesn’t make sense. The elaborate pretense of maintaining a draft board when there is zero chance of actually implementing a draft just doesn’t make sense. If conditions change such that massive conscription as per WWII becomes neccesary, then we can restart draft registration then. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/71 "2009-01-17T19:51:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If conditions change such that massive conscription as per WWII becomes neccesary, then we can restart draft registration then. I assume nobody can predict a massive conscription like WWII, so maintaining a consistent list makes sense. Always be ready. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/72 "2009-01-17T20:04:13Z")
But suppose WWIII happens tomorrow. We can’t just start conscripting all 18 year olds the day after tomorrow. We’d have to dramatically expand basic training facilities, manufacture equipment, housing, supplies, and on and on. The delay caused by not having lists of every 18 year old in the country is pretty small compared to the delay caused by not having vast stocks of uniforms and drill sergeants in mothballs waiting for them. We can set up the draft boards so they’re ready just as soon as we have enough barracks and bodybags ready. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/73 "2009-01-17T20:32:53Z")
Well, the world is a different place than it was in the 40’s. Who would we go to war with that would require a draft? China? I don’t see it. I think (and hope) we’re getting beyond the type of warfare where we send wave after wave of young people off to die hand-to-hand. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/74 "2009-01-17T20:59:42Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > Could some of you, especially those of you who have not been in the military define what your idea of openly gay means? I fear that some of you picture it being ok for two gay people to hold hands while in uniform or to kiss while in uniform. > This is not even allowed for heterosexuals in uniform. I’m just curious. This isn’t the civilian world folks. When I picture openly gay soldiers in the military, I picture the domestic side of things on base more than the day-to-day office work. (As I think I mentioned upthread, I grew up an Army brat so domestic base life is my image of the Army.) I see a guy kissing his husband goodbye in the morning from the door of their base housing, squabbling over the shopping cart at the commissary, holding hands at brunch at the Officer’s Club, etc. Life on base, as you know, is a lot more than just the job – it’s a whole little self-contained, old-fashioned, nuclear town. And while you’re correct that two soldiers both in uniform, whether gay or straight, cannot kiss or hold hands, is it not true that a soldier in uniform can kiss his/her civilian spouse while in uniform? I may be misremembering things, but I feel like I remember seeing my dad kiss my mom while he was in uniform numerous times. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/75 "2009-01-17T21:28:51Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But suppose WWIII happens tomorrow… I doubt an all out war between us and China and/or Russia would last more than a few days (if not hours). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/76 "2009-01-17T21:49:41Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, the world is a different place than it was in the 40’s. Who would we go to war with that would require a draft? China? I don’t see it. I think (and hope) we’re getting beyond the type of warfare where we send wave after wave of young people off to die hand-to-hand. Vietnam didn’t require wave after wave of hand combat. A war doesn’t even have to be very large or be about a significant strategic resource, it simply has to be a war the State demands be fought and in which public opinion has waned. Obviously this isn’t always a good thing, but I’ll trade off WWII and Korea for Vietnam and call it a win for the draft. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/77 "2009-01-17T23:21:18Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Obviously this isn’t always a good thing, but I’ll trade off WWII and Korea for Vietnam and call it a win for the draft. Is there any evidence that conscription was necessary in WWII? Everyone was chomping at the bit to kill Japs and Huns! Personally, I feel that if there isn’t enough public support, the war is already lost, draft or no draft; and besides, if the public doesn’t support it, then _that is a war we shouldn’t be fighting_. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/78 "2009-01-17T23:32:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I think Obama is going to **go straight** … > [@mswas](#): > > Watch, **he’ll do it fast, he’ll do it hard** , and move on. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > What happens when women in the military get pregnant now? Do they automatically get leave? > [@mlees](#): > > They are usually assigned to **rear area support duties.** I tell you, if DADT gets repealed, the Army is going to be comedy gold. ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/79 "2009-01-17T23:35:11Z")
In case some are unaware–sodomy is in violation of the UCMJ. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331/80 "2009-01-18T00:23:14Z")
> [@spike404](#): > > In case some are unaware–sodomy is in violation of the UCMJ. Even for heterosexuals? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-aide-confirms-he-will-end-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-military/481331.md?page=5)