# Obama and Biden: chickenhawks? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506 "2013-09-10T17:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/1 "2013-09-10T17:31:07Z")
Are Obama and Biden [chickenhawks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(politics)), given their advocacy of strikes on Syria? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/2 "2013-09-10T17:35:04Z")
Depends on how you mean “chickenhawks.” Obama was never a draft-dodger, Biden was (got student and medical deferments); OTOH, both do often hang around the bus station to entice young runaways into working for them as prostitutes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/3 "2013-09-10T17:42:52Z")
Obama was never subject to a draft, having missed it by a few years. Chickenhawk in this context means a draft avoider/evader who supports other people going to wars that don’t involve the country being directly attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/4 "2013-09-10T17:43:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Depends on how you mean “chickenhawks.” For example if you define it to mean “person I don’t like,” the answer (for the OP) is yes. This is the line of reasoning that tells us that if a person or political party does something bad, a person on the other side (or the other party) must be equally guilty _because_. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/5 "2013-09-10T17:43:26Z")
Typically the term connotes, IMHO, someone operating from a BSD perspective regarding international politics. Fomenting war and suggesting those who disagree are lacking in intestinal fortitude. Applying it to a very “small” and circumscribed strike that one has asked congress to approve of seems like a bit of a desperate stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/6 "2013-09-10T17:48:26Z")
There’s no way possible that Obama is a chickenhawk. That said, here’s a link to the Chickenhawk database, sponsored by the New Hampshire Gazette. They take the most peacenik stance on the term that I know of. According to them, if you are 18-21, _support_ a war and refuse to sign up for military service you are a _common chickenhawk_. That seems wrong to me, but I haven’t thought the matter through. More definitions at the link. [http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/](http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/) ETA: [QUOTE=The Link] If the there is a draft, and the nation is at war, the individual becomes a Chickenhawk First Class with Distinguished Fleeing Cross. [/QUOTE] That last definition is pretty expansive as well. I’d say that if there’s a draft, you support the war, but your lottery number doesn’t come up then you are not a chickenhawk. But this is grist for GD. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/7 "2013-09-10T17:58:44Z")
Since they’re actually in power, and can initiate strikes at will, I don’t think just advocating for strikes makes them chickenhawks (regardless of draft, military support, and service status). If this give-up-the-chemical-weapons plan to the UN goes through and there are no strikes, I’d say that’s a big victory for peace and against military intervention (though perhaps also a victory for _threats_ of military action, depending on your perspective). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/8 "2013-09-10T18:04:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Since they’re actually in power, and can initiate strikes at will, I don’t think just advocating for strikes makes them chickenhawks (regardless of draft, military support, and service status). If this give-up-the-chemical-weapons plan to the UN goes through and there are no strikes, I’d say that’s a big victory for peace and against military intervention (though perhaps also a victory for _threats_ of military action, depending on your perspective). The dominant perspective seems to be that it’s a victory for Putin and Assad. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/9 "2013-09-10T18:04:47Z")
Personally, I think that if someone opposes a war, and will not lay down their lives to stop the war, they are a chickendove. Sure, it’s real easy to oppose a war from the sanctity of one’s couch. But what kind of cowardly pacifist isn’t willing to risk their own lives to stop what, in their view, is such a great injustice? A chickendove, that’s who. Say what you will about Jane Fonda, at least she risked her life by going to North Vietnam to state her opposition to a ridiculous war. She’s got a hell of a lot more integrity than people who just post to message boards about how Afghanistan/Iraq/Panama/Grenada were disasters! Yes, I’m being facetious. I don’t think ad hominem insults of any variety is a valid reason to take a position on war or peace. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/10 "2013-09-10T18:05:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are Obama and Biden [chickenhawks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(politics)), given their advocacy of strikes on Syria? No. Was there anything else you wanted to ask about? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/11 "2013-09-10T18:13:18Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Obama was never subject to a draft, having missed it by a few years. Chickenhawk in this context means a draft avoider/evader who supports other people going to wars that don’t involve the country being directly attacked. Interesting perspective. So it’s impossible to be a chickenhawk unless there was a draft instituted in a time frame you would’ve been eligible for it? The latter portion “supports other people going to wars that don’t involve the country being directly attacked” would sure seem to describe the Obama / Biden position on Syria … ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/12 "2013-09-10T18:20:55Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The dominant perspective seems to be that it’s a victory for Putin and Assad. It’s way, way too early to tell- but it’s hard to see how giving up all his chemical weapons (if it works out this way) would be a victory for Assad. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/13 "2013-09-10T18:22:22Z")
**HurricaneDitka,** what is the substantive relevance of anything that you’ve raised in this thread? Why does it matter one whit if Obama and Biden are chickenhawks, Nobel Prize winners, Scientologists, or adherents of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Do you find it relevant that Joe Biden has a son who serves in the military? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/14 "2013-09-10T18:50:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are Obama and Biden [chickenhawks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(politics)), given their advocacy of strikes on Syria? No, and that’s one of the stupidest questions I’ve seen around here in weeks. Think about it. The president MUST be able to use military force. If he can only do so w/o being a chickenhawk, then only military people can serve as president, lest they be labeled chickenhawks. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/15 "2013-09-10T20:42:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are Obama and Biden [chickenhawks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(politics)), given their advocacy of strikes on Syria? One advocacy on strikes does not make one a war monger. Obama and Biden have plenty of history not supporting war to make me trust them that this one was either necessary, or it was necessary to keep up the pretense that allowed them to negotiate such a great deal to avoid war. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/16 "2013-09-10T20:49:15Z")
The existence of Obama and Kerry are actually a palliative to my feeling sickened by all of humanity. Syria has done this completely beyond the pale thing in gassing children, and to my disgust, opinion polls are against any kind of punitive strike. The liberal peacenik crowd is of course opposed; but the Republican side has suddenly found their inner dive just in time to oppose a Democratic president. So I guess I am an Obama/Kerry Democrat; I just wish I actually knew any of those in my daily life, since I doubt either of them are going to come over to my next backyard barbecue, and I’m tired of being horrified by the perspective of everyone I do know IRL. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/17 "2013-09-10T21:10:34Z")
What seems to be occurring may be the second best option possible. The best possible option would have been to make airstirkes and reconaissance in conjunction with the Free Syrian Army as soon as the war started, before the rebels started to be taken over more and more by extremist groups, an event which was fairly predictable. But showing the international community that chemical weapons are not to be tolerated is also a positive outcome, even if there does not remain any good end to the war itself, no matter who wins. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/18 "2013-09-10T21:31:18Z")
So what do you call someone who opposes the war, is drafted, serves in the military and kills people instead of fleeing to Canada? And, yes, I’m fully aware that we currently have no draft. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/19 "2013-09-10T21:39:42Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > So what do you call someone who opposes the war, is drafted, serves in the military and kills people instead of fleeing to Canada? A soldier. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506/20 "2013-09-10T21:45:12Z")
I know several men who opposed the war, got drafted and aren’t sure if they killed anybody or not. And who _wish_ they had fled to Canada. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-biden-chickenhawks/668506.md?page=2)